xHP Flashtool: Official Beta Results Thread for 6HP21

[Marco_v_W]

Marco is one of my customers, the one with the big ST

and here is his latest log, with my tune, and stage 3 xHP TCU flash:

reported torque (green curve) is stuck at 730ft.lbs, 1000nm, in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and no more torque limiter !!!

View attachment 3019

Hey Guys!
Great oppertunity to kick in this thread! This is my BMW 335i e91
more info about the car check: https://www.facebook.com/JB4-Tuning-Benelux-854594244624581/

As we speaking im am working with both clemens and david to make/match the perfect flash for both side (dme/tcu)
The flash looks real promising as you can see on the log! Now we try to up the boost and see how much the flash only on the stock AT can hold! We could raise the boost up till 750+ WHP

Here is a nice video so you could see and here how fast the xHP flash shifts!!

Enjoy and to be continued

 

[Jeffman]

Nice!
I wish my wife could drive like that, too!

 

[mkster08]

Excited for this... Had Alpina for a long time now and ready for a change!

 

[taron]

Please just ignore my question if its not relevant. My thoughts on this. For AWD cars can this be disabled before flashing? We probably not need this as we anyway are having good traction even with big single.

- Drag Race Mode in S. In S mode the transmission will now leave the TCC totally open in Gears 1,2,3 to help traction in high HP cars.

 

[Kaliber335i]

Can someone please upload his testo logs here..
And a screenshot of "torque output actual nm" from a ecu log would be nice.

 

[RayBan]

Please just ignore my question if its not relevant. My thoughts on this. For AWD cars can this be disabled before flashing? We probably not need this as we anyway are having good traction even with big single.

I wouldn't say this hurts on AWD cars at all. But that's the least problem, to do another version of Stage 3 with normal TCC setup in S.

 

[cebrailbakan]

Bump!

 

[natedog7700]

it looks like an issue in the DME flash.
do you get timing corrections on all cylinders ?

So if i get this XHP flash will i have to tweak my MHD DME flash? I currently run 93 around 450tq to prevent trans slip that i used to have at 500+. I had Ken send me a new Map with no tq value (for manual trans) so im not sure if thats all i needed or there is more to it than that?

 

[trebila]

you need to ask Ken.
I've never target low torque in my tunes, but the highest below the torque limiter in 5th, so my torque tables (made for alpina trans flash) were already OK for xHP stage 1 & 2.
for stage 3, as there is no more torque limiter, tweaks are needed in the DME flash to report higher torque and improve shifts.

 

[WedgePerformance]

I think there is some confusion as to what is required for Torque Actual as customer are coming back to me asking for L2T values set back to stock per comments from xHP.

All of my tunes target 500+ torque actual output for non-Alpina and 600+ torque actual for Alpina.

Customers who requested updated maps might want to revert back to their standard map with my corrected torque actual values to ensure proper line pressure until xHP clarifies requirements.

This is something I have been doing for years with the Alpina flash. So it should be no surprise to anyone as I was the first to flash my car with WinKFP back in 2013 and pushed for increased Torque Actual values to prevent issues with the AT / DCT customers.

 

[natedog7700]

I think there is some confusion as to what is required for Torque Actual as customer are coming back to me asking for L2T values set back to stock per comments from xHP.

All of my tunes target 500+ torque actual output for non-Alpina and 600+ torque actual for Alpina.

Customers who requested updated maps might want to revert back to their standard map with my corrected torque actual values to ensure proper line pressure until xHP clarifies requirements.

This is something I have been doing for years with the Alpina flash. So it should be no surprise to anyone as I was the first to flash my car with WinKFP back in 2013 and pushed for increased Torque Actual values to prevent issues with the AT / DCT customers.

It sounds like there is no clear answer right now on this issue so if XHP or anyone who has experience can chime in on this conversation that would be great. IMO this is a pretty big deal for this flash to work!

 

[RayBan]

There are 2 things to consider, when it comes to reported TQ:

Line Pressure:

The transmission has to see TQ values on CAN, that are matching real world as close as possible. With the stock ECU flash our N55 test car reports a maximum of around 420 Nm on CAN, which is the direct input value for the transmissions line pressure. Those 420 are pretty close to reality, as we all know. (that's Engine torque, not wtq)

With the stock TCU flash TQ is limited to 550 Nm in Gears 1,2,3,4,6 and 475 Nm in Gear 5. With the Alpina flash, all gears get upped to 570 Nm.

Our Stages will sport the following TQ limits on CAN:

Stage 1: 600 Nm, all gears
Stage 2: 700 Nm, all gears
Stage 3: 1000 Nm, all gears

Note: These are raw CAN values. They maybe altered with thresholds or minor factors in the ECU before applied.

The reported TQ on CAN has a direct relation with line pressure. So pulling down reported TQ, helps generate slip in these units.

Pressure/TQ Management on shifts:

The reported TQ serves also as input for all pressure maps and all TQ management maps, used during shifts. So if they are off, shifts are bad/slow/slip. The stock maps (in 6HP21) have a maximum of 450 - 580 Nm (that varies from map to map). Those maps are stretched on our side. In case of the Stage 3 all the way up to 1000 Nm. But those tweaks are uselss, if the reported TQ is kept down.

So from our perspective, it's pretty bad to underreport TQ and it's pretty bad to overreport TQ. Both approaches have their downsides. I know that this get's complicated as soon as piggyback units and things like Meth come into play. The ECU does not know they are there, so it can't calculate it and TQ scaling may need to be adapted again.

 

[bradsm87]

There are 2 things to consider, when it comes to reported TQ:

Line Pressure:

The transmission has to see TQ values on CAN, that are matching real world as close as possible. With the stock ECU flash our N55 test car reports a maximum of around 420 Nm on CAN, which is the direct input value for the transmissions line pressure. Those 420 are pretty close to reality, as we all know. (that's Engine torque, not wtq)

With the stock TCU flash TQ is limited to 550 Nm in Gears 1,2,3,4,6 and 475 Nm in Gear 5. With the Alpina flash, all gears get upped to 570 Nm.

Our Stages will sport the following TQ limits on CAN:

Stage 1: 600 Nm, all gears
Stage 2: 700 Nm, all gears
Stage 3: 1000 Nm, all gears

Note: These are raw CAN values. They maybe altered with thresholds or minor factors in the ECU before applied.

The reported TQ on CAN has a direct relation with line pressure. So pulling down reported TQ, helps generate slip in these units.

Pressure/TQ Management on shifts:

The reported TQ serves also as input for all pressure maps and all TQ management maps, used during shifts. So if they are off, shifts are bad/slow/slip. The stock maps (in 6HP21) have a maximum of 450 - 580 Nm (that varies from map to map). Those maps are stretched on our side. In case of the Stage 3 all the way up to 1000 Nm. But those tweaks are uselss, if the reported TQ is kept down.

So from our perspective, it's pretty bad to underreport TQ and it's pretty bad to overreport TQ. Both approaches have their downsides. I know that this get's complicated as soon as piggyback units and things like Meth come into play. The ECU does not know they are there, so it can't calculate it and TQ scaling may need to be adapted again.

What about the torque limiter 4 that Trebila and others continue to get that's unchanged from Alpina? What were the results of the testo logs provided and have you found another torque limit?

There is usually a MUCH bigger difference in achievable reported DME torque between stock and Alpina than just 20Nm. There has got to be another torque limit table coming in to play.

 

[Kaliber335i]

xHP Stage 3 official Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMcZLVU_rio

My car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO8k-tKwhQQ

Friends car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxl6rvYknh4

Something doesn't work out here.
Whatever you do, it's always slow shifting.
Part load is the same. Not rudimentary close.
If this would be an issue with reported torque, then at least the shifts at part throttle should be fast.
I flashed my stock ecu sw to test if it's a problem with reported torque. It isn't.
Same behaviour. "Slow" shifts.

Can someone add a video of shifts in M at part throttle and wot?

 

[Kaliber335i]

@bradsm87: you're right.
But i noticed that there is a big gap between reported tq by the dme and the torque which is received by the gearbox.
I'll do a log later.
My actual reported tq by dme is around 650Nm. The gearbox is only receiving like +-500. I think there is a divisor or gain in between them.
General the tq calculation of the dme is kind of raw. Real tq. course never looks like this we're getting in our logs.
Even in stock oem ecu flash.

 

[bradsm87]

@bradsm87: you're right.
But i noticed that there is a big gap between reported tq by the dme and the torque which is received by the gearbox.
I'll do a log later.
My actual reported tq by dme is around 650Nm. The gearbox is only receiving like +-500. I think there is a divisor or gain in between them.
General the tq calculation of the dme is kind of raw. Real tq. course never looks like this we're getting in our logs.
Even in stock oem ecu flash.

That is interesting. Can you do a MHD log of torque actual then do the same thing with Testo for the TCU parameters provided by RayBan and post the logs from both? If testo can export to CSV, you should be able to upload them to Datazap for nice graphing. My diff is away for warranty repair at the moment so I can't.

Regardless of what exact torque number is being fed to the TCU, I guess the issue is that the TCU is sending back a torque reduction request to the DME and this is still happening with the torque limit per gear table values raised.

 

[trebila]

I had a weird behaviour this morning with stage 3 D-mode.
4-5 and 5-6 upshifts, it slipped postshift, I saw the RPM raising 300 rpm postshift, then lowering back, as if TC was not locked.
It never happened before, with alpina trans flash. (I'm using the same torque tables than with alpina trans flash).

I have not been able to reproduce the issue.

I'll try tonight again, while logging.
I may have to raise reported torque in the dme flash.

warm up tables in D mode (stage 3) are off, it's not smooth at all, it's pretty unconfortable.
Last week stage 2 D-mode (warm up mode and warm mode) was better.

 

[trebila]

Marco is one of my customers, the one with the big ST

and here is his latest log, with my tune, and stage 3 xHP TCU flash:

reported torque (green curve) is stuck at 730ft.lbs, 1000nm, in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and no more torque limiter !!!

View attachment 3019

again guys, I've been able to report 1000nm (730 ft.lbs), flatlining up top (green curve), as I do for years with DCT.
to me it looks like I don't get tcu torque limiter intervention (timing diving on all cylinders the same way, at the same time) anymore, with stage 3 xHP flash.
I don't know if I get a torque limiter 4, as JB4 doesn't monitor it, but timing is completely on target now.

for those getting torque limiter 4 in mhd logs, do you get timing corrections on all cylinder (overtorque intervention) at the same time ?

I think logs are needed now.
discussing is a thing, analysing logs is another thing.

 

[bahn]

There are 2 things to consider, when it comes to reported TQ:

Line Pressure:

The transmission has to see TQ values on CAN, that are matching real world as close as possible. With the stock ECU flash our N55 test car reports a maximum of around 420 Nm on CAN, which is the direct input value for the transmissions line pressure. Those 420 are pretty close to reality, as we all know. (that's Engine torque, not wtq)

With the stock TCU flash TQ is limited to 550 Nm in Gears 1,2,3,4,6 and 475 Nm in Gear 5. With the Alpina flash, all gears get upped to 570 Nm.

Our Stages will sport the following TQ limits on CAN:

Stage 1: 600 Nm, all gears
Stage 2: 700 Nm, all gears
Stage 3: 1000 Nm, all gears

Note: These are raw CAN values. They maybe altered with thresholds or minor factors in the ECU before applied.

The reported TQ on CAN has a direct relation with line pressure. So pulling down reported TQ, helps generate slip in these units.

Pressure/TQ Management on shifts:

The reported TQ serves also as input for all pressure maps and all TQ management maps, used during shifts. So if they are off, shifts are bad/slow/slip. The stock maps (in 6HP21) have a maximum of 450 - 580 Nm (that varies from map to map). Those maps are stretched on our side. In case of the Stage 3 all the way up to 1000 Nm. But those tweaks are uselss, if the reported TQ is kept down.

So from our perspective, it's pretty bad to underreport TQ and it's pretty bad to overreport TQ. Both approaches have their downsides. I know that this get's complicated as soon as piggyback units and things like Meth come into play. The ECU does not know they are there, so it can't calculate it and TQ scaling may need to be adapted again.

If I understand this correctly on Stage 3 in order to reach maximum line pressure you would have to report torque act. at 1000nm regardless of how much torque the engine is actually producing. You stated that over reporting is bad yet I don't see how you'd get max line pressure without over reporting. Depending on your torque breakpoint scaling on the stage 3 there would be a possibility of running less line pressure @ a specific torque break point vs the stock/alpina line pressures if you correctly reported the torque act. Can you share the line pressure torque break point scaling used in the stage 3 map?

 

[Kaliber335i]

Here we go.
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v19
This is the log with Tq.Lim 4 and slightly raised Tq. Output.
The first timing drop is okay. It was tq. lim 1 (DTC due to wheelspin).

Now the interesting part:
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v20
This is the log right before the testo log.
You can see a torque output value of around 645Nm.

Right after that i logged with testo and get these results:
http://datazap.me/u/kaliber335i/v20testolog
Click on "stat_motoristmoment_wert"
This is the received torque.
And it's only getting 520Nm reported.

I changed the Load2Torque tables on V20 back to stock (V19 has raised values).
If i'm only adding 40 Nm beginning from 3000 rpm the limiter is kickin in and my timing is dropping.
I can feel that while driving.

My torque limit tables are maxed.
Fuel eff divisor stock.


Maybe I'm flashing back to Stock tcu sw to check which tq lim is activating in gear 5..
But i'm pretty sure it's tq lim 4.

@trebila: i don't know what jb4 is tweaking in this case. I'm going to ask my friend to do a log with raised tq output. He's running mhd with a scaled Map. And I believe the scaling has an influence on this all.