Technical Official N54 Epoxy Discussion

[rev210]

Good point. By adding a huge mass of epoxy into the core of your your engine you're introducing added risk of all kinds of new unknown potential failure modes that weren't there previously for a questionable benefit.

Actually, which failure mode is this addressing? I'm definitely not an expert, but the n5x block failures I've seen since I've been on the forums (with exception of one case where a cylinder hydrolocked and blew out a chunk of wall on cyl#1) were cracks forming in the thin area between cylinders. I already mentioned an n55 with epoxy closed deck who formed cracks between almost all of his cylinders - I'll dig up a link when I get a chance.

Edit: link to n55 with epoxy closed deck with cracks between cylinders:

@langsbr Good thought about cylinder warping during head torquing. Do we even know for sure why bmw closes the decks on b58 and s-series motors? It's obviously stiffer than open deck at the top of the cylinders, but does bmw think that closed deck is necessary to contain the marginally more power those engines make? Or perhaps the added stiffness from the closed deck makes the manufacturing process easier by limiting the need to address cylinder warping after torquing the heads down in the factory? Again, I'm not an expert and don't know the answer.

Before I'd throw an epoxy closed deck in, I'd want a clear understanding of what specific problem it's solving, how effectively it solves them, and what new risks are created so I can consider if any added risks are worth any added benefit it may yield. I don't see any of that information in this thread. What I do see is somebody marketing aluminum block epoxy (which @rev210 pointed out has already been around for a long time) for a use condition with entirely different functional requirements than filling cracks in the exterior of the block.

Usually the rationale for open deck is simple , it's cheaper and offers a cheap design efficiency gain for cooling. It's generally through history suited to helping pass emmissions and keeping costs down. Getting the same cooling efficiency from a closed deck means a bit more cost in the engineering design and more material in the block casting. Over many thousands of blocks that's alot of savings.
The power handling and strength is always relatively weak as a trade off.

The use of the alluminium specific epoxy is well proven for block fill was my point here and not a 'brand new discovery' , not sure I'd want to do any major block repair with it unless it was a result of an accidental stripping of a non combustion/force loaded bolt or minor structural/cosmetic.

Your point is valid about whether it's going to stop the weakest link in the chain from breaking. This is a very good question.

A high power sleaved block would definately want to get closed at the same time. So with all that cost maybe a built S55 might start to look like a better starting point over the extra machining costs on an n54? You pick up better cams,head oiling and other things as well.

Epoxy block fill like I said has its pros and no debate about it adding strength but, it can't brace what it can't encompass in the case of the N55. Also, you may be up for preventative cooling maintenence (or at least should be prepared for it) as hydra mentioned. Not a big deal if you accept the higher costs of living with high power in general but, a trade off.
S55 > CNC Closed deck sleaved N55/54 > Epoxy fill N55/54 > Open deck N55/54

 

[Hydra Performance]

Closing the deck is probably a necessity in the long term if one wishes to run boost levels (and cylinder pressures) beyond what is possible on pump gas. Sure it is possible to run 30+ psi on an 8-bolt pre-LCI block (the one without the coolant grooves in between the cylinders) without immediate failure, but extended running @ higher cylinder pressures will rapidly warp/oval out the liners on an open-deck block and lead to smoking & a loss of compression. This is where closing the deck comes in handy, as it stabilizes the liners allowing them to withstand elevated cylinder pressures for longer before losing compression. Seems like a false economy to me to do this epoxy filling thing if you've got the motor apart and are going through the effort and expense of building the motor. Plus these motors are at an age where they're ALL tapered/ovalled-out by now, and require either re-sleeving or overboring - both of which are machine shop operations.

I ended up doing a basic re-sleeve on my 6-bolt LCI block (the one with the coolant grooves between the cylinders) when I rebuilt my motor, which means I can't turn it up to 11 without splitting a sleeve in short order. But I'm okay with that because as I've said many times before, car is plenty fast for me already, plus I'm severely traction-limited anyway, so no need for m0ar...

 

[EPOXY54]

He should be upfront and say he is a vendor vs a random guy that happened to come across said product. He has since changed his post but I saw the intial post and comes across as a scammer/liar to ME.

Hey, we had changed the post regarding the confusion, but we thought it was obvious as my username reflects the product we are promoting. What we were intending to portray is that we were able work with a manufacturer and source a product, local to us in Canada, which has great thermal properties which replicate cast aluminum.

@EPOXY54, is there a benefit into installing the cylinder head while the epoxy is curing? Surely the block has some distortion while being torqued. Would it not be better to have the epoxy cure in that final state than just sitting open?

This has been brought up in conversation among our customer base, although I haven't seen it done yet, but very possible to achieve as the epoxy sets based on the chemical reaction to the hardener rather than an oxygen or temperature based reaction.

The use of metal specific block fill is an old and well proven strategy for block strengthening. There are applications for cast iron and alluminium and it's been used on drag engines where the water galleries are completepy filled and you are chasing the last bit of block rigidity.
To freak you out even more , we ran around with cast iron blocks back 30 years ago half filled with a form of concrete, like your driveway is made of.

The alluminium specific epoxy is used on a lot of other engines both for closed and open deck, so it's not revolutionary at all. Despite what the original title might have implied.

Some motors aren't always suitable due to the cooling system and jacket layout.
It appears the N54 water jacket and gallery layout suits the approach.

Done with care, make sure the galleries are absolutely cleaned and ensuring the right material is used , no reason why it won't add some strength particularly on the open deck top. It will add significant strength but, in some cases the failure point in the block can be unrelated, I think the N54 can sometimes crack between cylinders?

There might be a need to accept potential cooling system maintenence frequency. You can't really tell what might be going on in terms of creating small cavitations, turbulence and hot spots that weren't there. These aren't going to necessarily show up as higher temps but the pump and coolant might not last as long.

Lots of good points here. This is not a new idea to fill aluminum blocks with epoxy. Previously people would use products such as Devcon and Moroso Engine Block Filler, although was known to deteriorate with specific chemicals in coolants, and shrinking/expansion was an issue highlighted by many customers, which resulted in cracked blocks. Some platforms which we are testing on currently such as the EJ engine is a split casing design, making it more difficult for the epoxy to be installed as there needs to be modifications made to fit a socket through for the bolt holding the casing together. The N54 doesn't have any complications as such. To address the cooling system questions, we did a lot of testing to ensure compatibility with engine temperatures and coolant type, and we have not heard of any failures regarding the cooling system as a result of our epoxy. Mark has a great video regarding the thermal dynamics of the N54 engine in contrast to the epoxy fill:

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but based on my previous experience with block-filling there is always a chance of filler erosion/delamination clogging the radiator and causing all kinds of grief. Just my .02..

Maybe if you don't flush out the sugar, or clean your galley walls, but this has been a non-issue among our 200+ customers. We are able to confirm this as a handful of our customers have ran their engines for several thousands of miles, and torn it apart afterwards. But I do understand the concern.

Before I'd throw an epoxy closed deck in, I'd want a clear understanding of what specific problem it's solving, how effectively it solves them, and what new risks are created so I can consider if any added risks are worth any added benefit it may yield. I don't see any of that information in this thread.

Engine cracking, warping and catastrophic failures due to the lack of cylinder support has been documented time and time again on the n54 platform.

6-bolt LCI block

Also, a nice thing to mention is that our epoxy is JUST thin enough to flow through the cylinder slits - or whatever you want to call them, essentially closing that weak point in the 6-bolt block. I attached a photo of my personal 6-bolt block, where epoxy was installed though the slits in the block.

 

[Klos]

Your username is the same as the product you are pushing, yet you recently "discovered" it ??

Please GTFO. Already off to bad start.

Edit: now you changed your post. Gtfo and go back to FuckBook or e90post.

You're a fucking looser lol