xHP Flashtool: Official Beta Results Thread for 6HP21
- Thread starter doublespaces
- Start date
after more testings, there is definitely something wrong with stage 3 D-mode, at least on my car:
D3->D2 and D2->D1 downshifts occurs way too soon, today it downshifted from D2 into D1 car still moving, absolutely not wanted in D-mode.
even the "clunk" when D3->D2 downshifting doesn't occur in S-mode S3->S2. S mode is in fact smoother and more natural than D mode, it doesn't downshift from S3 into S2 as soon as D mode...
I'll switch back into stage 2, but I'm not optimistic as D-mode in stage 2 and 3 are the same.
if it's not fixed in a future revision, I'll switch back to Alpina trans flash or do my own custom tune.
Today, I wrote a post on another Forum, to add a little to the discussion in terms of how "useful" xHP is. I thought it is a good idea, to have that also here, as it applies general:
No mather, if it is the stock flash, or the Alpina flash, they are limited in TQ, which means ECU/Engine Tuners have to keep their reported TQ values below this limit. For years this was the standard, as there was no alternative. People flashed Alpina on it (negating the fact, that Alpina uses different trans hardware, but that's another story) and living with it, because it was the best, what was achievable at that time.
Those guys running upgraded Turbos or even strong FBO ones, run TQ well beyond what this transmission was ever made for, but beated on it nevertheless. So now we combine 2 factors: Running TQ well above OEM limits AND at the same time sending lowered TQ values on CAN, to avoid hitting the internal limiters. The result is obvious: Too much slip in every situation and really ****ed up adaption values.
For example: Desirable Slip is in the range of 30 - 60 rpm at the TCC, which helps dampening vibrations and removes spikes from the internals. With screwed TQ values on CAN even a Stage 1 car slips around 100 - 200 rpm at the TCC. That is unnoticable to the driver and can only be seen in the logs. Of course the transmission tries to compensate, but that compensation has boundaries. You will end at the limit of adaption, which is never a good thing.
So if anyone with 600 ftlb wants to make any use of xHP in terms of shift speed or TQ capacity, he has to adapt his engine tune to work again with the transmission as it is intended to be and then drive some time to normalize adaption values. I do not recommend anyone to clean them, to take a shortcut. That can lead to funny behaviour on transmissions with some miles on it. Additionally, xHP will not be able to repair a transmission. If your car slipped for ages on certain WOT shifts, your clutches are likely already worn out. No way xHP will bring back lost clutch material.
The situation is a difficult one. There comes a totally new product in, which open up a lot of possibilities, but people expect it on day 1 to solve all their problems. That won't happen. It's like working with a black box for years and getting along with it. Once the box opens and you start to look what's inside, you will notice a lot of new stuff to be taken into account.
For now theres little to none knowledge in the market, concerning the BMW 6HP box. We released it a few days ago and Engine Tuners and Endusers have now to learn how to deal with whats coming up. First and foremost the ones pushing the limits.
But apart from that, there are benefits which are really simple to grasp, like the extended Rev-Range, or the fully open TCC in S mode in Gear 1,2,3 on Stage 3. Those are all features intended to benefit the ones with heavily modded engines. A FBO car will never get anything from a 7500 rpm shiftpoint, but some with big singles might love that.
And if someone loves his Alpina tune, but only wants to change certain things, it's as easy as it can get. Backup you TCU with xHP, use this backup as base file in TunerPro, load the xdf from our website and start to tweak the Alpina file. You will only need the General Flash License one time, to flash your car as often as you like with your custom files.
And if you don't want to play around, by yourself, we can do it for you, once we start the custom Map service in 2 - 3 weeks, similar to whats known from MHD.
No mather, if it is the stock flash, or the Alpina flash, they are limited in TQ, which means ECU/Engine Tuners have to keep their reported TQ values below this limit. For years this was the standard, as there was no alternative. People flashed Alpina on it (negating the fact, that Alpina uses different trans hardware, but that's another story) and living with it, because it was the best, what was achievable at that time.
Those guys running upgraded Turbos or even strong FBO ones, run TQ well beyond what this transmission was ever made for, but beated on it nevertheless. So now we combine 2 factors: Running TQ well above OEM limits AND at the same time sending lowered TQ values on CAN, to avoid hitting the internal limiters. The result is obvious: Too much slip in every situation and really ****ed up adaption values.
For example: Desirable Slip is in the range of 30 - 60 rpm at the TCC, which helps dampening vibrations and removes spikes from the internals. With screwed TQ values on CAN even a Stage 1 car slips around 100 - 200 rpm at the TCC. That is unnoticable to the driver and can only be seen in the logs. Of course the transmission tries to compensate, but that compensation has boundaries. You will end at the limit of adaption, which is never a good thing.
So if anyone with 600 ftlb wants to make any use of xHP in terms of shift speed or TQ capacity, he has to adapt his engine tune to work again with the transmission as it is intended to be and then drive some time to normalize adaption values. I do not recommend anyone to clean them, to take a shortcut. That can lead to funny behaviour on transmissions with some miles on it. Additionally, xHP will not be able to repair a transmission. If your car slipped for ages on certain WOT shifts, your clutches are likely already worn out. No way xHP will bring back lost clutch material.
The situation is a difficult one. There comes a totally new product in, which open up a lot of possibilities, but people expect it on day 1 to solve all their problems. That won't happen. It's like working with a black box for years and getting along with it. Once the box opens and you start to look what's inside, you will notice a lot of new stuff to be taken into account.
For now theres little to none knowledge in the market, concerning the BMW 6HP box. We released it a few days ago and Engine Tuners and Endusers have now to learn how to deal with whats coming up. First and foremost the ones pushing the limits.
But apart from that, there are benefits which are really simple to grasp, like the extended Rev-Range, or the fully open TCC in S mode in Gear 1,2,3 on Stage 3. Those are all features intended to benefit the ones with heavily modded engines. A FBO car will never get anything from a 7500 rpm shiftpoint, but some with big singles might love that.
And if someone loves his Alpina tune, but only wants to change certain things, it's as easy as it can get. Backup you TCU with xHP, use this backup as base file in TunerPro, load the xdf from our website and start to tweak the Alpina file. You will only need the General Flash License one time, to flash your car as often as you like with your custom files.
And if you don't want to play around, by yourself, we can do it for you, once we start the custom Map service in 2 - 3 weeks, similar to whats known from MHD.
Had a lot of issues with this, but XHP has taken it upon himself to fix the issues. Very good costumer service in my books.
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Nice! Is it possible for your customer to do a log with Testo to see how much torque is being reported to the TCU? Any insight on what table(s) need to be changed?
Have you taken ANY TESTO logs? You are reporting 1000nm but with JB4 am I right? Could you take TESTO logs to see what you report to TCU? Me and one other guy with MHD OTS stage2 map took TESTO logs and we are maxed at 536nm. Then the third guy has a diesel and he's able to report over 700nm to TCU.
EDIT: Brad was quicker
If you can use INPA while you are driving with JB4 then you should be able to use TESTO. Should very easy to test.
I did some testing today with M-mode and looked torqu values at the same time. changes are very good and firm until that ~500nm torque. If i do WOT and then change gears it feels like my head going through to the windshield. It's like heavy breaking and then we go again. Could this now be an effect from that reported torque to TCU is just too low to work properly because this behaviour hasn't adapted at all within week. Every other change is very nice and adapted already. MY DME is now reporting over 900nm and there is about 750-800nm real torque from the engine
Here is one log of those M-mode changes. You can see rpm going up and down after gear change and actual torque drops to under 400nm. Don't mind the other problems in the log
http://www.datazap.me/u/pekkapalo/xhp-log1?log=0&data=2-3-20-25&zoom=64-130
http://www.datazap.me/u/pekkapalo/xhp-log1?log=0&data=2-3-20-25&zoom=64-130
Raising reported torque has never been an issue.
The difficulty is to raise it without inducing timing corrections.
In all your logs, timing is drastically reduced, close to zero, when torque raise.
Which timing values do you target in the tune?
Log with all cylinders raw timing, not timing corrections.
The difficulty is to raise it without inducing timing corrections.
In all your logs, timing is drastically reduced, close to zero, when torque raise.
Which timing values do you target in the tune?
Log with all cylinders raw timing, not timing corrections.
That map is only 98 gasoline and I'm targeting in those rpm and load what you see in logs. Those corrections are most probably knock related. That's unfinished map anyway and needs lots of tweaking but that's not issue here.
My point is all and all that gear changes are bad when dme reported goes over 500nm and really bad @WOT. I hope this is only an adaptation issue but it also can be because of that difference of reporting torque to TCU compared to DME
You need to send me a log of this situation, because that's totally opposite as programmed. Will send you some custom Jobs for Testo to get hold of this.
