Best aftermarket oil thermostat solution for N54?

[Asbjorn]

Wow your IAT's are still quite hot, how much boost and power is your car making?

Water temps are good, I don't know anything about the dct, and oil temperatures are really hot almost starting limp at 132ºC. How big is your oil cooler, and if you are running two how ate you still having oil temperature issues? Especially since ambient temperatures were not that high.

I posted a log and you still ask about what boost im running?

Anyway power is a tiny bit more than stock M4 I would say. Peak iat of 50C on track isn't bad with these small turbos. Was hitting +100C before with the vrsf 7in fmic.

Limp mode at 132C oil? Seems the stock thermostat has only just opened fully at that stage haha. Limp mode doesn't start until 147C if my memory is correct.

And again, water temps aren't actually that great when you consider that the dme was targeting less than 90C. In terms of temperature deltas, both coolant and oil are equally far away from start of limp mode (15C). Pretty balanced.

Anyhow, here's my oil two coolers. The lower one is the one running with an electric pump to the sump (brake pedal activated).

 

[F87Source]

I posted a log and you still ask about what boost im running?

Anyway power is a bit more than stock M4 I would say. Peak iat of 50C on track isn't bad with these small turbos. Was hitting +100C before with the vrsf 7in fmic.

Limp mode at 132C oil? Seems the stock thermostat has only just opened fully at that stage haha. Limp mode doesn't start until 147C if my memory is correct.

Oh so that's what that box was, all I saw was a bunch of colored lines compressed into a tiny box on my phone.


The ecu at least on the F series pulls timing above ~45ºC so yeah 50 is quite high imo. Wow 100ºC?! That is insanely hot iat's, how did that even happen with a vrsf race intercooler, I'm thinking your air flow through the intercooler is not too good.


The limp mode begins at 132ºC which means no drivetrain error yet, you just start loosing some power and timing people dub this the ghost limp mode. When you get higher in temps then you get the full limp mode where there is no power at all and error codes.

 

[Asbjorn]

Oh so that's what that box was, all I saw was a bunch of colored lines compressed into a tiny box on my phone.


The ecu at least on the F series pulls timing above ~45ºC so yeah 50 is quite high imo. Wow 100ºC?! That is insanely hot iat's, how did that even happen with a vrsf race intercooler, I'm thinking your air flow through the intercooler is not too good.


The limp mode begins at 132ºC which means no drivetrain error yet, you just start loosing some power and timing people dub this the ghost limp mode. When you get higher in temps then you get the full limp mode where there is no power at all and error codes.

It happened while I was running the 7in version, not the 7.5in version. And it was in 100F/37C ambient and no WI at the time. But still the 7.5 HD would have performed much better. I tried it in similar conditions and only hit 62C peak or so. The FMIC I run now is almost as good as the 7.5HD without WI, but has the benefit of being able to run a larger radiator. Anyhow, my car was tuned based on the previous iat peaks, so I have plenty of (timing) headroom now that my temps dont run nearly as hot. This is also why my power is relatively low compared to street tuned N54.

On the N54 I believe timing gets reduced on a scale involving both coolant and iat. It is happens gradually. Oil temps are not involved in this. At 147C AC starts to get reduced, but you still don't get any drive train error until higher temps. Same for coolant at 117C. But again, the timing gets reduced much earlier as a function of both coolant and iat.

 

[F87Source]

It happened while I was running the 7in version, not the 7.5in version. And it was in 100F/37C ambient and no WI at the time. But still the 7.5 HD would have performed much better. I tried it in similar conditions and only hit 62C peak or so. The FMIC I run now is almost as good as the 7.5HD without WI, but has the benefit of being able to run a larger radiator. Anyhow, my car was tuned based on the previous iats peaks so I have plenty of headroom now that my temps dont run nearly has hot. This is also why my power is relatively low compared to street tuned N54.

On the N54 I believe timing gets reduced on a scale involving both coolant and iat. It is happens gradually. Oil temps are not involved in this. At 147C AC starts to get reduced, but you still dont get any drive train error until higher temps. Same for coolant at 117C. But again, the timing gets reduced much earlier as a function of both coolant and iat.

I see, how much did water injection help you iat's?

 

[Gavin]

185f is the one I am using , works great.
If you opt for aftermarket transmission coolers like I have for the 6AT then same deal, they have a thermostat for that too.

wouldnt one of these be better option for oil stat

FSM-205	205ºF (96ºC)	200ºF (93ºC)	221ºF (105ºC)
FSM-215	215ºF (102ºC)	212ºF (100ºC)	233ºF (112ºC)

 

[F87Source]

wouldnt one of these be better option for oil stat

FSM-205	205ºF (96ºC)	200ºF (93ºC)	221ºF (105ºC)
FSM-215	215ºF (102ºC)	212ºF (100ºC)	233ºF (112ºC)

yeah I was considering the 205 because it opens when the oil is at perfect operating temperature.

 

[Asbjorn]

I see, how much did water injection help you iat's?

10F or so. Link: https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads...mps-during-extended-track-use.4352/post-82570

However keep in mind those results were from running hot water and a 375cc nozzle. I used the wind screen washer tank placed next to the engine at the time. Now WI gets water from a container placed in the luggage compartment. Yesterday I added ice cubes to the water as well... however the nozzle has been reduced to 225cc.

 

[rev210]

Does your car warm up properly with a 185ºF thermostat? Because it starts to crack open lower than that. I guess a more specific question is what temperature does your oil stay at during normal daily driving?

Its perfect. Warms up pretty quick.The amount of oil going through is a minimal amount. You can find reviews on them saying the same thing.
185f one for me. Pay more attention to the full flow numbers, a bit better guide.
Temp wise driving around suburbs tonight on a 60f evening (winter) it sits at 203-205f . Which is about what its full flow temp rating is . Same/same on a summer 100f day. Hence I'd suggest the 185f model. Track wise for me ,doing cool downs you can get it back down to somewhere near 205 and you are laughing . With a higher unit you are looking at 221 to 233f as your cool zone depending on the cooling setup.
Horses for courses though.

 

[rev210]

wouldnt one of these be better option for oil stat

FSM-205	205ºF (96ºC)	200ºF (93ºC)	221ºF (105ºC)
FSM-215	215ºF (102ºC)	212ºF (100ºC)	233ºF (112ºC)

Not really but, depends. Look more at the full flow number for what the 'cool' target temp is.
Getting to temp is no problems the way they are designed in each case.

 

[martymil]

The problem is you need a minimum of 220 to start boiling of contaminates in a street car, any lower and you risk causing damage to your engine, you would have to change the oil after every track day to run such a low temp thetmostat.

Todays synthetic oils can handle high temps without issue and you can potentially do more damage running it to cold that hot if you can't boil of the unburned fuel and moisture.

Just something to think about when choosing your thermostat

 

[gmagnus7]

The problem is you need a minimum of 220 to start boiling of contaminates in a street car, any lower and you risk causing damage to your engine, you would have to change the oil after every track day to run such a low temp thetmostat.

That's a widely spread misconception. The fuel, moisture, and other fluid contaminants can still effectively evaporate at lower temperatures like 200, and 210. Does 220 do a better job? Yes, but it doesn't "boil" at 220 the same way a pot of water does. Each contaminant has a different vaporization temperature. I tried to explain my reasoning in an earlier comment but I'll try again:

A) The boiling point of pure water is 100C/212F (and not 220F) however:
B) Contaminants and other solutes generally increases the boiling point of water, so even at 220 it might not be high enough - we don't know the exact number. On top of that, the pH of water affects it's boiling point.
C) As far as gasoline goes (typical oil contaminant), it begins to vaporize at 35C/95F and has a final boiling point of 200C/392F. So the gas begin to evaporate much earlier than water (and you're never reaching the final boiling point) therefore it's even less of a concern as far as oil temps go. Ethanol has a boiling point of 78C/172F so again, anything past that and you're good to go for all you E85 people.
D) If your concern is the water reacting to create sulfuric acid in the crankcase, its going to happen regardless to a certain extent. The boiling point of sulfuric acid is 337C (not gonna happen) so the only way your're getting rid of that is using quality oil with enough TBN's and keeping an eye on change intervals.

So at the end of the day you'll be fine with most thermostat options out there. Keep it above 212 if you're worried about it, but the 185/205 thermostats are perfectly good too. I'd be more concerned about oil flow and whether the oil cooler(s) can keep up if the thermostat is wide open.

 

[F87Source]

The problem is you need a minimum of 220 to start boiling of contaminates in a street car, any lower and you risk causing damage to your engine, you would have to change the oil after every track day to run such a low temp thetmostat.

Todays synthetic oils can handle high temps without issue and you can potentially do more damage running it to cold that hot if you can't boil of the unburned fuel and moisture.

Just something to think about when choosing your thermostat

Something to add to gmagnus7 is my m2 from the factory does not see oil temps over 95°C/203°F from the factory, and that's bmw's thermostat, so if contamination was a huge concern BMW would have likely made sure it ran hotter.


I was just concerned that the 185°F triggering point would be too soon as it is before the 192°F warm up temp for the m2, but based on the other user's data it's ok.

 

[martymil]

Different engine different specs, one can say it does not matter but the BMW engineers set that temp for a reason and they are the specialists as they built the engine.

In the end if you think you know better run what ever you want its your car but making a blanket statement is irresponsible, I race my engine with a ade thermostat as it runs 10c cooler and run the stock thermostat every other day.

I never seen overheating issues as I upgraded by radiator and run an aux one too and still run the factory oil cooler as I never seen the need to upgrade it as my
temps never exceed 120c.

Changing the thermostat to a lower one is a band aid at best, one should upgrade their cooling system first and then go from there.

If your overheating you have a problem and no band aids are going to fix that long term.

 

[F87Source]

Different engine different specs, one can say it does not matter but the BMW engineers set that temp for a reason and they are the specialists as they built the engine.

In the end if you think you know better run what ever you want its your car but making a blanket statement is irresponsible, I race my engine with a ade thermostat as it runs 10c cooler and run the stock thermostat every other day.

I never seen overheating issues as I upgraded by radiator and run an aux one too and still run the factory oil cooler as I never seen the need to upgrade it as my
temps never exceed 120c.

Changing the thermostat to a lower one is a band aid at best, one should upgrade their cooling system first and then go from there.

If your overheating you have a problem and no band aids are going to fix that long term.

Yeah obviously changing a thermostat alone will not be able to solve over heating issues, no one said it did.

The point of changing the thermostat is because the factory one, and all stock housing units are restrictive and the more flow you can get the better for cooling. That is the whole point of the improved racing unit, it is the best thermostat on the market. For me I just wanted to know which temperature range would be closest to stock, and chime in on what thermostat is the best for users looking for one. I already plan extensive cooling upgrades for the car which include a triple pass CSF ac delete main radiator + dual aux radiators + central CSF boss oil cooler, this setup should be able to handle just below the ghost limp mode.



Track driving and drag strip racing are two different things, if you are a fast driver on a track I can almost guarantee your cooling setup with just a radiator upgrade will not hold up for 20-30 min sessions (both oil and coolant). There are individuals utilizing large upgraded oil coolers with upgraded radiators that are still having issues with oil and coolant temperatures on hard track sessions and that's at 450whp.

 

[martymil]

There is more to cooling than just upgraded coolers, having the airflow through the radiators and engine bay is the most overlooked aspect in our cars.

This where the 1m shines as the bumper is designed for airflow and it channels it directly through the coolers and you can easily improve that even more S the opening are bigger but still restricted.

My car is definetly not a drag queen and has seen a few private track sessions but I only do 20 min sessions at most.

I'm only there twice a year to test new products.

 

[F87Source]

There is more to cooling than just upgraded coolers, having the airflow through the radiators and engine bay is the most overlooked aspect in our cars.

This where the 1m shines as the bumper is designed for airflow and it channels it directly through the coolers and you can easily improve that even more S the opening are bigger but still restricted.

My car is definetly not a drag queen and has seen a few private track sessions but I only do 20 min sessions at most.

I'm only there twice a year to test new products.

Yes air flow is important and that was already addressed on all the serious track m2's with vented hoods behind the radiator to improve air flow.

All the F series M cars, even m sport f series have bumpers that channels air directly to the coolers behind it, nothing really special about the 1m bumper.

Yeah 20 mins is where you will begin to see cooling issues. If you're a really fast driver temps will be higher even faster.


On a side note, do you know if the 1m sump is baffled from the factory or if there are upgrades improving oil starvation resistance? IIRC (gotta check real oem) the 1m sump is the same as a normal n54.

 

[I am Jacks N54]

This makes me think of the Andretti quote, "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

 

[MDORPHN]

Yes air flow is important and that was already addressed on all the serious track m2's with vented hoods behind the radiator to improve air flow.

All the F series M cars, even m sport f series have bumpers that channels air directly to the coolers behind it, nothing really special about the 1m bumper.

Yeah 20 mins is where you will begin to see cooling issues. If you're a really fast driver temps will be higher even faster.


On a side note, do you know if the 1m sump is baffled from the factory or if there are upgrades improving oil starvation resistance? IIRC (gotta check real oem) the 1m sump is the same as a normal n54.

No the 1M oil sump is same as on all N54s. That's the reason I had baffles welded into mine.

Neil

 

[F87Source]

No the 1M oil sump is same as on all N54s. That's the reason I had baffles welded into mine.

Neil

Ah I see.

 

[martymil]

I had a baffle welded in myself to address possible oiling issues.

The 1m is a very different car to 135 as the m2 is to the 1m