Best aftermarket oil thermostat solution for N54?

[gmagnus7]

The thermostat is not the problem.

Ehhh it's definitely part of the problem. If you regularly want 130C oil temperatures then power to you man but most people don't, especially if the ECU starts cutting power because of it. This thread is slowly turning into conjecture rather than facts.

Also @F87Source it's hard to compare the restriction of different thermostats without knowing the flow rate (lpm,gpm, etc) plotted against oil pressure - which is data we don't have. Improved racing advertises up to 20gpm but at what pressure, with what lines, and how long are they? We don't have that kind of data on the stock thermostat so any opinion on restriction is just that, an opinion. Keep in mind the N54 has a variable oil pressure too. Does the engine even send that much oil to the oil cooler? Doubt it, so moot point but I have no proof.

Nothing wrong with opinions, but let's make sure we remember that they're just that. I like the mosselman one, you like the improved racing one, and Marty likes the stock one. Awesome! This is why different products exist!

 

[F87Source]

Ehhh it's definitely part of the problem. If you regularly want 130C oil temperatures then power to you man but most people don't, especially if the ECU starts cutting power because of it. This thread is slowly turning into conjecture rather than facts.

Also @F87Source it's hard to compare the restriction of different thermostats without knowing the flow rate (lpm,gpm, etc) plotted against oil pressure - which is data we don't have. Improved racing advertises up to 20gpm but at what pressure, with what lines, and how long are they? We don't have that kind of data on the stock thermostat so any opinion on restriction is just that, an opinion. Keep in mind the N54 has a variable oil pressure too. Does the engine even send that much oil to the oil cooler? Doubt it, so moot point but I have no proof.

Nothing wrong with opinions, but let's make sure we remember that they're just that. I like the mosselman one, you like the improved racing one, and Marty likes the stock one. Awesome! This is why different products exist!

True. I just like having the ability to choose the activation temperature, and highest possible flow. I also like having a thermostat because I live in Canada, which means it would never warm up or take forever to warm up in the winter without one.

 

[gmagnus7]

True. I just like having the ability to choose the activation temperature, and highest possible flow. I also like having a thermostat because I live in Canada, which means it would never warm up or take forever to warm up in the winter without one.

Yep I hear that. Ontario guy myself.

 

[RTA]

Part of engine / car cutting power can be de-programmed. Look for lsd related codings.. this is not all, but significant, especially brake over heat logic is crazy..

I would personaly improve the capacity of the cooling system itself, but not a super expert on the topic.

 

[martymil]

I live in one of the hottest climates on this planet and put the car through its paces regularly in 110f ambient plus temps.

I dont have any heat issues with water and oil.with sports mode cooling on water and ade thermostat at the track.

Most racers I've witnessed have sub standard budget cooling not saying you are but are no quicker than i am and tend to overheat mind you our sessions are only 20 min so might be not long enough to overload my cooling system.

Next track session when they open up ill take some logs and pics

 

[gmagnus7]

I live in one of the hottest climates on this planet and put the car through its paces regularly in 110f ambient plus temps.

I dont have any heat issues with water and oil.with sports mode cooling on water and ade thermostat at the track.

Most racers I've witnessed have sub standard budget cooling not saying you are but are no quicker than i am and tend to overheat mind you our sessions are only 20 min so might be not long enough to overload my cooling system.

Next track session when they open up ill take some logs and pics

Nice, sounds like you have your car sorted! The ADE thermostat opens at 195F correct? So yea it would perform much better than the stock (opens at 230F ). I thought you were originally vouching for the stock thermostat, my bad. Logs would be awesome. Stock or aftermarket radiator?

 

[martymil]

I run the stock one on the street and swap out the ade on the track, I did say that earlier

I run the stock oil cooler and aux water radiator as its a 1m and csf main radiator

 

[Gavin]

I run the stock one on the street and swap out the ade on the track, I did say that earlier

I run the stock oil cooler and aux water radiator as its a 1m and csf main radiator

since the ade stat isnt available are the ones on ebay,ftp,hard motorsport stat etc all the same as the ade stat?im just looking to lower from stock a little like the ade.

 

[martymil]

i had 6 of them not long ago, what did he discontinue them ?

 

[Asbjorn]

Ehhh it's definitely part of the problem. If you regularly want 130C oil temperatures then power to you man but most people don't, especially if the ECU starts cutting power because of it. This thread is slowly turning into conjecture rather than facts.

So lets be fact based then. Where are the logs that prove upgraded thermostats can keep you from hitting 130C oil on track? Someone mentioned tyspeeds M2 that has the heat exchanger removed. Below you see him hitting 130C oil and 114C water quite nicely. This again proves that power reduction due to high oil temps should be the least of our worries.

 

[F87Source]

So lets be fact based then. Where are the logs that prove upgraded thermostats can keep you from hitting 130C oil on track? Someone mentioned tyspeeds M2 that has the heat exchanger removed. Below you see him hitting 130C oil and 114C water quite nicely. This again proves that power reduction due to high oil temps should be the least of our worries.

View attachment 39629

No one said it would prevent you from hitting 130ºC, you are missing the point. What it does is buy you more time before you hit those critical temperatures since the flow opens sooner than stock.

Also this was early 2018 before he had the triple pass CSF radiator + dual aux rads in the front, now he has added water sprayers as well and from his pikes peak attempt his temperatures were sub 200ºF for a vast majority of the time and never came close to 130ºC for oil temps. I have been following tyspeed closely on his f87post thread and instagram and have had a few moments to chat with him and he has told me about his battles against temperatures, you can even see them in the youtube video description.

But clearly power reduction due to oil temperatures is a problem, which is why he and CSF have spent so much time combating the issue and revising the setup multiple times.



Oh and if you look at the m2 forum there are logs showing boost and timing being pulled due to high temperatures, it is enough to take seconds off of a laptime, that's pretty significant to me.

 

[F87Source]

I live in one of the hottest climates on this planet and put the car through its paces regularly in 110f ambient plus temps.

I dont have any heat issues with water and oil.with sports mode cooling on water and ade thermostat at the track.

Most racers I've witnessed have sub standard budget cooling not saying you are but are no quicker than i am and tend to overheat mind you our sessions are only 20 min so might be not long enough to overload my cooling system.

Next track session when they open up ill take some logs and pics

I don't want to be rude but if all you have is an upgraded CSF radiator and stock oil cooler and you are not over heating then it is one of the following:

1) Your track does not have enough high speed sections and low speed sections with minimal air flow to really stress out your cooling

2) You car is not setup to be pushed hard on the track, i.e. you don't have enough grip for the corners, poor suspension whatever it may be and that means you don't push your car hard in the corners and let off.

3) Your sessions are too short to really stress the car out.

4) You are just not a fast enough driver.

5) Or it could be the water to oil heat exchanger making the m2 more suceptible to over heating, this could be a possibility if the 1m does not have it.

6) Your power levels were low enough on the track that the upgraded radiator was able to drop enough coolant temps in your system to make 20 min lapping possible without driving oil temps up too, since oil temps and coolant temps are closely intertwined.

The m235i and m2 have larger oil coolers than the 1m and even stock (not really the m235i since it doesn't make enough power) they are near (but not) over heating when driven by a fast driver, there are logs from active auto werkes, and a few others on f87 post showing this. When I took out an m2 for the track on R comps + pagid pads (my buddy's car not mine) all he had were FBO's and a jb4 on map 1 and we over heated the car to limp mode in ~30 min sessions. With jb4 on map 0 it was really close to limp but held on. So it is hard to understand why your 1m is not overheating unless it was reasons 1-6 above.

But I am happy for you that your car has no issues with heat with your driving style, you are incredibly lucky to not have to deal with this incredibly crappy issue.



Also tyspeed deleted the front radiator fan on his m2 to increase air flow as he noticed it was a bottle neck.

Part of engine / car cutting power can be de-programmed. Look for lsd related codings.. this is not all, but significant, especially brake over heat logic is crazy..

I would personaly improve the capacity of the cooling system itself, but not a super expert on the topic.

Terrible idea, now you are just allowing temperatures to increase and no intervention by the ecu to save the engine. Those high temperatures and high rpms could lead to oil shearing and boom spun bearing.












Overall I really don't care anymore, whatever you guys choose to do with your cars in terms of cooling is up to you. But for me I am going to go my own route which is track it, if it over heats improve cooling setup, and rinse and repeat.

 

[Asbjorn]

No one said it would prevent you from hitting 130ºC, you are missing the point. What it does is buy you more time before you hit those critical temperatures since the flow opens sooner than stock.

But that is useless @F87Source , I already tried this running the by-pass valve. The lower setpoint buys you one lap or so. It is nothing. I was asking for proof that a higher flowing thermostat helps (regardless of setpoint).

 

[Asbjorn]

Oh and if you look at the m2 forum there are logs showing boost and timing being pulled due to high temperatures, it is enough to take seconds off of a laptime, that's pretty significant to me.

Because of high iats and water temps. Not oil. Prove me wrong. (I mean this in a friendly and constructive manner and appreciate all of your inputs man)

DME, ABS, other Module warning triggers during track use with N54

I know a lot of this has been covered, I just wanted to get it collected in one spot so to speak. Here are my notes that I have gathered from others who track their N54 based cars. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect or if you have anything else to add from your experiences. Oil...

bmw.spoolstreet.com

 

[F87Source]

But that is useless @F87Source , I already tried this running the by-pass valve. The lower setpoint buys you one lap or so. It is nothing. I was asking for proof that a higher flowing thermostat helps (regardless of setpoint).

But I believe that is because you are keeping the stock housing which is the restrictive part. From what Tyspeed has said a full delete buys you more than a few laps.

The idea of a higher flowing thermostat being better, I should clarify thermostat as in including deleting the stock oil filter housing with a delete plate, will allow more flow to the oil cooler. Just like a radiator when you start heating up you want to increase duty cycle to move fluid through the loop as quick as possible to dump the heat and continue back into the loop to take more heat out. I believe this was shown in some of the high flow thermostat testing in the corvette forums where improved racing dominates, but I cannot remember clearly. If you want bmw specific data that is likely not possible unless someone logged it, and so far you are the only person I know who extensively logs track data. Everyone else does drag racing so oil temps dont even go that high. So the best I can offer you is a relation ship to a radiator, where you want to move as much fluid to the heat exchanger as fast as possible. If I have time I will dig through the corvette forums.

Because of high iats and water temps. Not oil. Prove me wrong. (I mean this in a friendly and constructive manner and appreciate all of your inputs man)

Of course man I understand, we are trying to figure these heat issues out which plagues all track guys. No hard feelings.

IAT's of course are going to be high no way around that on a stock car, on an upgraded intercooler car it's still high but better.
Ok on active autowerke's slightly modded m2 with a light tune (tbh I think it might be a slight detune on boost because they targeted 15 psi while a stock m2 can see up to 19 psi) you see oil temps 11ºF from lip, and coolant 16ºF from limp. So again more oil limited https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1285217


For my friend with his m2 when we limped I think both oil and coolant limped the car, but oil was deep into the 280 range and coolant just passd the 245 range. I will email him to see if he still has his jb4 logs.


There are alot of other m2's out there with full csf suite of cooling and heavily modded still limping out, there are alot of logs on f87 post and iirc they have oil temps passed limp range and coolant right on the edge.


For my own experience:
m235i: never got a full lap because it misfired and always had so many issues that I sold it, this was due to tuning in 2014 being non existant and I had to send my ecu in for a bench flash to pull timing out of the tables to run ps2 withou the resistor mod. PI caused a whole host of issues with my ekp etc etc. So that car never got good track time.

m2: too anxious of what happened with my brand m235i with stuff failing all over the place and not being able to enjoy a brand new car that I am taking it slow on my m2, warranty is up this year so here comes the mods then some track time. So so far my m2 is being babied while I thrash other cars on the track, namely my frs (love this car I owned a few of them).


Edit- contacted my friend and he said that he does not have the logs since he deleted jb4 mobile when he switched to flashing. It turns out my memory was wrong as we went into the 250's for water. So defintely coolant limp.

 

[F87Source]

I also wanted to add, yes iat's cause timing to be pulled but you also notice even more timing being pulled and boost dropping when you hit the ghost limp mode due to coolant or oil temps. I talked alot with the guys from tunerwerks in early 2014 and thats where I learned alot about the ghost limp mode then the full limp at 300F where you see it on the idrive. I also heard alot about this from paradoxical who confirmed it on his x1 n55.


Anyways another thing I wanted to say was in a game of chasing every degree of cooling every bit counts, so that's why I am opting for a high flow thermostat, for the better flow and the ability to set trigger temps. It may not be for everyone. My frs and m235i had no thermostat and that really sucks so that's why i want one now.

 

[gmagnus7]

If running a colder thermostat and it's still reaching high temperatures when it's fully open, you need better or larger coil coolers. For example, I don't know of anyone that's had oil temp issues after switching to the ER dual cooler / competition kit. Thermostat's only part of the equation for overall system cooling.

And also yes, there's many other things that cause limp mode and reduced power output. The braking temperature is indeed one of them which is stupid because there's no brake temperature sensor - it's calculated based on speed, pedal input, and brake history (from what I've read). Definitely helps coding that out. Oil temp is just one of them.

 

[Gavin]

i had 6 of them not long ago, what did he discontinue them ?

Can you tell where you got your "6" because I'm looking for just 1 lol

 

[martymil]

I got them from ade

 

[Gavin]

I got them from ade

It's not on there website http://www.ad-eng.net/
Did you just buy them 2019/2020?