Ad: VTT - New Product Release - Billet Motor Mount Inserts

[derekgates]

Wait, maybe I'm having a dumb moment here lol, but what do you mean by negate the benefit of the iS mount? Just as in add a little additional more, possibly annoying NVH? Or just make the mount no more beneficial than a standard mount?

I could be way off here, but I was under the influence that the only difference between the regular and iS mount was that either the viscous fluid was a bit thicker (like 40w vs 30w oil) or the rubber holding it in was a bit thicker, thus keeping the ride feel the same except when compressed quickly/further like under acceleration or turning. I've never seen one up close due to the cost so I'm not sure if I'm way off base here, but if it is how I imagine it then I would think there'd be no increase in NVH (vs a standard OE mount) but you should still get that extra bit of stiffness from the plate still since it's really only felt when load is put on the mount, not at all times.

If only Rob Beck was here to tell us how these VTT products would work!

Sorry for the delay.

The 'iS mount, from what I remember has more rubber in the rubber:fluid ratio. This makes it more stiff and also able to handle more torque (as little as the stock car comes with from factory compared to normal 335i). The mount is still compliant and results in a nice ride...

It was my understanding that the BMW race team created the inserts to stiffen up the mounts in side to side play which not only makes the mounts last longer but also increases NVH due to less fluid/rubber being the material that is 'giving' when torque is being applied (instead being metal). I was worried about the the 'iS mount losing it's compliance at that point and making the obscene price be pointless; less compliance but can handle the same amount of torque as a standard mount.... and instead should be using inserts with the 335i mounts which can be had for a fraction of the price of a single 335is mount.

 

[Panzerfaust]

That’s an interesting way to respond to an honest question...especially when you probably ask more questions than most on here.

And that's an unsurprising post from someone who solely makes contrarian posts instead of ever contributing things. But hey, whatever makes you happy buddy

Sorry for the delay.

The 'iS mount, from what I remember has more rubber in the rubber:fluid ratio. This makes it more stiff and also able to handle more torque (as little as the stock car comes with from factory compared to normal 335i). The mount is still compliant and results in a nice ride...

No worries! Thanks for the info, I see I was wrong about that and can see where your concern would lie in that case. I would have to agree then that the benefits would be far more when used on an OE mount and you'd likely lose out on the comforterformance level if sticking these in there.


@langsbr I apologise if my post came off as aggressive or condescending towards you. From what I can see of the plates and knowing how the engine mounts are, my understanding is that since these are hammered in place (not just simply slipped in) they should not only stop the side to side movement due to isolating the threaded "perch" area, but they should be touching/pushing on the rubber component inside of the mount as well, similar to adjusting pre-load on suspension components in function. Certainly not the end-all motor mount solution, but if it works for the German M engineers and made it passed the bean counters I have a little extra faith in it being beneficial.

Do I think they'll be as stiff as any poly mounts? No, certainly not since they're just using an insert to decrease the area of movement rather than using a less flexible material for the entire mount. But considering our options on the platform either fall apart, melt, cost multiple hundreds for a single side upgrade, or are solid aluminum I am interested in hearing feedback on how they work.

 

[Asbjorn]

Certainly not the end-all motor mount solution, but if it works for the German M engineers and made it passed the bean counters I have a little extra faith in it being beneficial.

M cars don't use inserts afaik. It's a GT4-level motorsport concept.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Typical. Getting answers about VTT products is nearly impossible. I remember emailing back and forth about GC vs GC lite when I was trying to decide what turbos to get and being so dissatisfied with the lack of evidence based answers other than "you'll be fine, here's a Dyno on our shop car" or "looks at these 1/4 mile times" that I canceled and went another route.

This is maybe the best thing I have read in such a long time. Make sure you guys are ALL understanding what was said here. He asked about the difference between turbos, and he was pointed to. Wait for it, not only dyno results, BUT also 1/4 mile or REAL WORLD testing, and he was so disappointed in this real-world evidence that he went another way. No wonder this guy wants to weigh silicone hoses he is out of his mind. Holy hell you cannot make this stuff up.

I can see the convo that went down with Tony now.

Customer: Hey, I am considering some GC's should I go Lites or Regular?

Tony: Hello, here are some dyno numbers, and 1/4 miles times for both. We did a lot of testing to see the benefits of both instead of just giving people some sales spiel, we are results-driven here at VTT.

Customer: HOW DARE YOU answer my question with numbers, and results. I wanted you to sell me on why I should go one way or the other based on your salesmanship, not actual turbocharger performance. Cancel my order this is OUTRAGEOUS!

 

[langsbr]

This is maybe the best thing I have read in such a long time. Make sure you guys are ALL understanding what was said here. He asked about the difference between turbos, and he was pointed to. Wait for it, not only dyno results, BUT also 1/4 mile or REAL WORLD testing, and he was so disappointed in this real-world evidence that he went another way. No wonder this guy wants to weight silicone hoses. Holy hell you cannot make this stuff up.

I can see the convo that went down with Tony now.

Customer: Hey, I am considering some GC's should I go Lites or Regular?

Tony: Hello, here are some dyno numbers, and 1/4 miles times for both. We did a lot of testing to see the benefits of both instead of just giving people some sales spiel, we are results-driven here at VTT.

Customer: HOW DARE YOU answer my question with numbers, and results. I wanted you to sell me on why I should go one way or the other based on your salesmanship, not actual turbocharger performance. Cancel my order this is OUTRAGEOUS!

Is that you Tony?

This is the first I've ever seen Chris post a response to a criticism, but not address the other questions. Maybe I'm missing something, I just don't see what benefit these will provide. I know, I know, Tony can't explain it any better...

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Is that you Tony?

This is the first I've ever seen Chris post a response to a criticism, but not address the other questions. Maybe I'm missing something, I just don't see what benefit these will provide. I know, I know, Tony can't explain it any better...

It is not. Lately, these threads seem to spiral out of control like the fuel heating thread. I find myself simply skipping to the end. My head hurts looking at the infighting, so I try to avoid it. Tony is off having fun with the RS3. I am left to answer questions about engine mounts...

What's your question again?

Chris

 

[derekgates]

It is not. Lately, these threads seem to spiral out of control like the fuel heating thread. I find myself simply skipping to the end. My head hurts looking at the infighting, so I try to avoid it. Tony is off having fun with the RS3. I am left to answer questions about engine mounts...

What's your question again?

Chris

Bleh. I haven't been trying to spiral it out of control, but was curious about using it with 'iS mounts and if it makes sense... I have been trying to get back to a comfy ride with my 335is and finally sourced 'iS mounts for ~$300 (passenger side). After the NVH increase of poly mounts (RevShift) I want to avoid the raised idle issues as the DCT doesn't really obey that min idle at all times and dips into vibrate mode quite a bit.

Would it make sense to do the drivers side mount with inserts? Is this a dumb idea?

 

[langsbr]

I understand these will help prevent lateral movement. But how do they prevent vertical movement? That's what breaks/messes up on the 034 mounts. The cap that keeps the rubber in place breaks off and the mount can move up and down freely. What benefit do these provide for that scenario?

 

[fmorelli]

I understand these will help prevent lateral movement. But how do they prevent vertical movement? That's what breaks/messes up on the 034 mounts. The cap that keeps the rubber in place breaks off and the mount can move up and down freely. What benefit do these provide for that scenario?

Sorry to answer a question with a question. But these are basically a take off on what BMW makes for their race car applications. Why did BMW engineers produce this?

FWIW I seriously doubt there is one-dimensional movement.

Filippo

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Bleh. I haven't been trying to spiral it out of control, but was curious about using it with 'iS mounts and if it makes sense... I have been trying to get back to a comfy ride with my 335is and finally sourced 'iS mounts for ~$300 (passenger side). After the NVH increase of poly mounts (RevShift) I want to avoid the raised idle issues as the DCT doesn't really obey that min idle at all times and dips into vibrate mode quite a bit.

Would it make sense to do the drivers side mount with inserts? Is this a dumb idea?

ANSWER: Since no one has tried that out yet, I'm not 100% sure how it'll pan out. I can tell you that your scenario makes sense and I think is worth a shot.

I understand these will help prevent lateral movement. But how do they prevent vertical movement? That's what breaks/messes up on the 034 mounts. The cap that keeps the rubber in place breaks off and the mount can move up and down freely. What benefit do these provide for that scenario?

ANSWER: You get some stiffening of the whole unit, in all directions, during installation (via compression). I can't speak to the 034 mount issues, I don't want to misspeak but was under the impression that was more material related. To answer your question best, I'd have to understand why the 034 mounts fail (which I don't know) and reason if adding these would address that situation (which I cannot, given the lack of info on the first part). So, since I told you I'd give you an answer, the conservative route is for me to tell you that I'm not sure, but I don't think it'll fix the 034 issues, and recommend going to an OEM mount.

Chris

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Sorry to answer a question with a question. But these are basically a take off on what BMW makes for their race car applications. Why did BMW engineers produce this?

FWIW I seriously doubt there is one-dimensional movement.

Filippo

ANSWER: Yes.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

ANSWER: TBD

 

[Lurcher]

Since there is not a label on the photos - are the N54 pieces the same for both sides? @derekgates - you thinking what I'm thinking?

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Since there is not a label on the photos - are the N54 pieces the same for both sides?

ANSWER: N54's are same for both sides.

 

[fmorelli]

 

[Asbjorn]

Just installed my set. Pleasantly surprised with the results! What a relief after having had the green revshift installed on the passenger side. A bunch of the NVH has disappeared. Now there's less vibrations at high rpm and at start-up. There is also less harshness when driving in traffic, and less cabin noise in general. A tiny edge of responsiveness is gone, so that is the price you pay. I made a table comparing all the factors I find relevant below.

In conclusion I wouldn't be too concerned running these in combination with one IS mount for high power applications or track use. However both of my stock mounts are the non-IS type, so I wouldn't know for sure until I have tested it myself.

My motor mount story: I have swapped motor mounts quite a number of times on my Z4. The first time I realized I wanted stiffer mounts was when I sat in an idling stock M4. I hadnt driven an inch yet, and the car already felt more alive and ready than I was used to. This impression stuck with me, and after way to little market research, I went with the revshift n54 motor mounts (rs). Initially I installed two black rs mounts. After driving around for a few minutes, I realized I had made a huge mistake. I swapped back the drivers side OEM mount, and accepted the trade-off that it was. I drove around like this for some time, only to discover that the black revshift mount had melted and compressed. I then swapped in the green poly instead, and kept the drivers side stock. NVH increased due to the green poly being stiffer, but total NVH was still less than running two black rs mounts. Some people will say you just raise idle, and that there are no other downsides to such as setup. I disagree. There is NVH as revs climb, and it is not the fun type of NVH, its the worrying kind of NVH. An example of good NVH is the kind of NVH that you get from a DCT with poly mounts at higher revs. That is the type of NVH where the more you rev, the more the car sounds like it is a race car. However at slower speeds you certainly do not want to listen to the NVH a DCT makes, so in the end you don't want to use poly there either. One dct poly mount is ok though. Anyway, today I discovered that the green rs mount had also started melting every so slightly, and there was around 1mm slack in the mount.

So out they went, and in went both of my old stock mounts with VTT inserts:

......

Here's how the different type of mount configurations I have tried compare:

Car: Z4 N54 DCT	Stock	Stock + VTT inserts	OEM + black rs	OEM + green rs	Two black rs
NVH idle (650rpm)	None	not tested, worse than stock according to VTT	Bad, idle must be raised.	Bad, idle must be raised	Oh lord...
NVH idle (900rpm)	None	None	Little NVH	Some NVH (felt through steering etc)	Some NVH, idle must be raised further
NVH normal driving	None	Almost no NVH	Little NVH	Little NVH	Some NVH
NVH wot	None	Very little NVH	Little NVH	Some NVH (high rpm feels pretty bad)	not tested, and I don't want to...
Steering response	Some weight transfer	Sharper than stock	Sharper than stock until it melts.	Sharp, but as the poly melts over time sharpness is lost.	Ultra sharp, but...
Throttle response	Some lag	Sharper than stock, but not annoying in daily driving	Sharper than stock, but a bit annoying/noisy in daily driving. Becomes worse as poly melts.	Sharp, but even more annoying/noisy in daily driving. Becomes worse as poly melts.	Ultra sharp, but...
Track-readiness	OK	OK	Very bad. Passenger side mount will melt	Better than black, but the poly still melts and deforms slowly over time.	Very bad. Passenger side mount will melt
Recommended?	No	Yes	No	No	No

So there you have it...

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Great post sir! We truly appreciate the feedback!

 

[gmagnus7]

...My motor mount story: I have swapped motor mounts quite a number of times on my Z4. The first time I realized I wanted stiffer mounts was when I sat in an idling stock M4. I hadnt driven an inch yet, and the car already felt more alive and ready than I was used to. This impression stuck with me, and after way to little market research, I went with the revshift n54 motor mounts (rs). Initially I installed two black rs mounts. After driving around for a few minutes, I realized I had made a huge mistake. I swapped back the drivers side OEM mount, and accepted the trade-off that it was. I drove around like this for some time, only to discover that the black revshift mount had melted and compressed. I then swapped in the green poly instead, and kept the drivers side stock. NVH increased due to the green poly being stiffer, but total NVH was still less than running two black rs mounts. Some people will say you just raise idle, and that there are no other downsides to such as setup. I disagree. There is NVH as revs climb, and it is not the fun type of NVH, its the worrying kind of NVH. An example of good NVH is the kind of NVH that you get from a DCT with poly mounts at higher revs. That is the type of NVH where the more you rev, the more the car sounds like it is a race car. However at slower speeds you certainly do not want to listen to the NVH a DCT makes, so in the end you don't want to use poly there either. One dct poly mount is ok though. Anyway, today I discovered that the green rs mount had also started melting every so slightly, and there was around 1mm slack in the mount...

Nice review. Did you have the thermal sleeve on the passenger rev-shift mount when it melted? Why not swap the OEM for the passenger side then? I always thought mixing stiffness from side to side was a bad idea and can lead to one failing before the other. Also how does steering get affected by engine mounts? Honest question, but it seems like one of those "seat of the pants" qualitative type measurements. I also think if the NVH was so bad you were afraid to go WOT with the 80A poly mounts, something was wrong to begin with. Just sounds contradictory to every other review I've seen of them. I guess DCT is a different animal though too, so I have no experience with that.

I do think these are great for anyone not wanting to bother with poly mounts. They might even make the 034 worth it if it prevents them from failing.

 

[Asbjorn]

Nice review. Did you have the thermal sleeve on the passenger rev-shift mount when it melted? Why not swap the OEM for the passenger side then? I always thought mixing stiffness from side to side was a bad idea and can lead to one failing before the other. Also how does steering get affected by engine mounts? Honest question, but it seems like one of those "seat of the pants" qualitative type measurements. I also think if the NVH was so bad you were afraid to go WOT with the 80A poly mounts, something was wrong to begin with. Just sounds contradictory to every other review I've seen of them. I guess DCT is a different animal though too, so I have no experience with that.

I do think these are great for anyone not wanting to bother with poly mounts. They might even make the 034 worth it if it prevents them from failing.

Yes it was heat shielded. Downpipes wrapped as well. Used the pass side because thats where the IS mount installs from factory. Might not matter indeed.

The engine is heavy so the weight it transfers can be felt when steering. The motor mount acts as a damper of this weight transfer. My car is setup for cornering with all bearing front suspension, responsive tires, sways and alignment so I can feel the changes in motor mount stiffness pretty well through the steering.

Oh and my car is z4 dct with s55 flywheel. Other configurations will have other nvh profiles. And Im also sensitive to nvh as a person. Rattles drive me crazy etc, you know the type.

I wasn't all out afraid to go wot though, the vibrations just didn't compliment me doing it. The vibrations send a signal that said "please stop, this isnt fun". Now it doesn't do that anymore and just sounds and feels super healthy when I rev it out.

Its a bit like when you straight pipe some cars and they go from sounding great to sounding broken. And you start to appreciate the work the engineers did to make something mechanical feel a certain intended way to us humans.

 

[F87Source]

Hey guys, here at VTT we have been painfully aware of the relatively poor choices for motor mount upgrades for the N5X platform for quite a while. While there are some options on the market, they are either A. Expensive, B. simply do not fit well, C. Have harsh NVH and road manners, or D. a combo of all of the above. What we decided to do, is do what BMW does for their own factory race cars (Except BMW wants $150 each). That is instead of completely replacing the mount, simply make a billet aluminum insert for them. This leaves the feel of the factory mount in place but stiffens them up quite a bit removing unwanted engine movement without rattling your teeth out or emptying your wallet.

We have made two styles, and using a combo of both they fit the chassis line up across the board - N54, N55, and S55, N20 and most B58 engines!

We found on the N54 after install with the stock idle level you will feel an increase of NVH at idle which goes way when driving, but a simple idle increase to 800-900RPM with MHD gets rid of this for a near-stock feel at idle. Shifts are incredibly crisp with no engine movement, and you get more of a sense of a planted feel.

Install is simple, remove your mounts, install these using either a rubber mallet or soft blow hammer, or light press, and reinstall your mounts. We also offer Ready to install mount kits for even less work, and if your stock mounts are in need of replacement. These include Inserts pre-installed into a set of Aftermarket N54 mounts and preinstalled into a set of OEM mounts.

Pricing is as follows:

• N54, E/F N55, N20, B58 Both Billet inserts $149.99
• S55 Both Billet inserts $149.99
• N54/ E-Series N55 Both billet inserts + New aftermarket mounts $269.99
• N54 / E-Series N55 Both inserts + New Genuine OEM mounts $369.99
• F-Series N55/B58 Both inserts + New aftermarket mounts $299.99
• F-Series N55/B58 Both inserts + New OEM mounts $399.99
• F8X S55 Both inserts + new OEM mounts $399.99

Can be ordered here: https://vargasturbo.com/product/vtt-n54-n55-s55-n20-b58-billet-motor-mount-inserts/

100 sets in stock ready to ship. (if ordered with a complete mount kit may take an extra 1-2 days before shipping)

Hey Chris, what do I buy for the N55 m2? The driver side and passenger side motor mounts are different with only one mount being shared with the s55 and the other being an unshared part number with any bmw.