Upgraded T04 turbos for less $ than stock! Wtf? Link inside

[Rob@RBTurbo]

That is the link where I bought my turbos it was JDM parts shop, seller was allforacing.

There was no balance sheet included. Turbos were shipped in one box that had two boxes inside, one for each turbo packed in foam. View attachment 11109View attachment 11110 View attachment 11111

From what I’ve gathered here is that the new “logo” style VTT stage 2 turbos have not shipped yet because they just got them done. What was being sent out up to this point were units that, at least in pics, look almost identical to what I received from this eBay seller.

Same exact packaging, foam, housing plugs and caps, etc; of the set we bought from the same China manufacturer last year. They actually email us about once a week ever since our first interaction, even once again this morning, saying " How are you? Do you have any need on BMW N54 Twin Turbo 49131-07031/49131-07041? Customizing according to your requirements is acceptable. Please feel free to contact us for further discussion."

BTW ours too did not come with balancing forms but this was the balancing conclusion of what we were shipped on these 2 particular turbos we'd purchased:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=578237&postcount=8

NOTE: You may notice they are not real consistent nor were either result even close to ideal, thus buying these units is basically a game of Turbo Roulette.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[buster84]

JuniorB
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m just trying to share my experience so if anyone is looking at these turbos they will have a little bit more information to go off. I really should have just left my mouth shut instead of getting flamed, but I thought this board was about sharing information!

Turbos are installed, I’ m waiting for motor mounts to show up to reinstall subframe. I’m working this weekend so hopefully can get it all back together on Monday. View attachment 11009View attachment 11010
Ar down pipes are on but didnt get a pic of them installed.

Still not sure what I have to do as far as tuning goes. I was running JB4 with MHD backend flash.

Thinking of running pump gas first and then adding PI and E85 down the road.

So it's now Wednesday....

 

[Mightbaal]

Same exact packaging, foam, housing plugs and caps, etc; of the set we bought from the same China manufacturer last year. They actually email us about once a week ever since our first interaction, even once again this morning, saying " How are you? Do you have any need on BMW N54 Twin Turbo 49131-07031/49131-07041? Customizing according to your requirements is acceptable. Please feel free to contact us for further discussion."

BTW ours too did not come with balancing forms but this was the balancing conclusion of what we were shipped on these 2 particular turbos we'd purchased:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=578237&postcount=8

NOTE: You may notice they are not real consistent nor were either result even close to ideal, thus buying these units is basically a game of Turbo Roulette.

Thanks,
Rob

Question... I buy these turbos send them to you have them balanced how much will it cost me for that?

 

[buster84]

Question... I buy these turbos send them to you have them balanced how much will it cost me for that?

Just buy his turbos, why would he undercut himself. Also you can go to any turbo shop to get it balanced. Check your local area for turbo repair. There are a lot of shops because of the huge amount of turbos on the market now coming stock on cars, trucks and diesels.

 

[stelvio]

I’ve been a lurker for a while and putting aside the tone or whatever in which some vendors or individuals state things, a trend begins to become evident across many car forums (not just BMW’s).

Reputable car enthusiasts do not source a piece of technology as essential as a turbo without seeing some data to back up claims. Not even Honda enthusiasts.

I understand most people sourcing noname turbos from China aren’t interested in making 700(a)whp but daily their cars instead and that’s perfectly fine as absolutely no one is entitled to tell you what to do with the money you have earned. But those products just aren’t proven/backed like some of the bigger brands and there may be a price to pay for that whether it’s reliability or reliability. As long as you are not in denial. Problem is when people make claims before they even installed the turbos then we never hear from them again because they blew up or whatever. There’s no shame in testing a product even if it doesn’t go well.

But there’s no reason to knock on other brands when you do not have all the data from the Chinese turbos either.

Buy something, test and REPORT BACK to inform the rest. That’s how a community helps each other. Not by bashing on one vendor or individual just because you can. No one has a gun to your head; spend your money some place else then.

As my pastor used to say: “Buy nice or buy twice.”

 

[sirdaft1]

Sweet. Hexon part 2 in the making...

Initial feedback: Awesome, great deal, spool awesome- made good power too! Sometimes when spool I may hear some shrieking though. Any ideas?

3-6 months later: Car is smoking a bit. Not sure if it is the PCV system, but it was all replaced including a new valve cover and also tried new oil drains. Any ideas?

6-12 months later: Mechanic pulled downpipes and found a bunch of play in the turbos. So I messaged the Ebay Store, they replied "Sorry about your issues. This store is now under new management and the Ebay Store has been renamed. You may wish to dispute with paypal." But I can't dispute with paypal as it has been too long. Any ideas?

12-18 months later: For sale ads: "Fully Cast Stage 2 turbos! Purchased brand new and one is in great condition (aside for some housing cracking) but the other is in need of immediate rebuild, $150 shipped for both to the USA"


Rob

One of the funniest things I've read on the forums in a long time !!!

And it's dead on accurate.

 

[langsbr]

Reputable car enthusiasts do not source a piece of technology as essential as a turbo without seeing some data to back up claims.

Says the guy who has never seen the Sloppy Mechanics group.

I understand most people sourcing noname turbos from China aren’t interested in making 700(a)whp

See the first comment . Lots of guys making 700+ on china stuff and beating them up daily on stock LS stuff. It can be done, and done cheap.

The thing I have found is that there are 2 kinds of people that use no-name Chinese hardware - those that have no clue what they are doing and want the absolute cheapest setup. They typically install stuff wrong, have things fail, then blame the cheap hardware.

The other knows that while there is a small risk in using no-name items, the likelihood is fairly small, especially when installed properly. They accept that risk, and typically win.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

In the spirit of continuous improvement, often times we'll do incremental changes/upgrades and not rename the series.

For example, the latest version of the stage 2's were initially shipped with no logos on the compressor housings until the latest version was complete. It's been a couple months that we've been shipping them with the cast logos. The "recently in stock" item that perhaps is being confused is the GC V2.0 family.

 

[JuniorB]

It's about being informative, these are popping out everywhere, and seems we're now seeing first hand that if these are really byproducts of what been sold to us, knowing the massive labor involved, I'd say it's like the vendor at the indoor flea market who has a truck with authentic beats headphones and Apple iPads for $59.99. This has been goin on for years, the company who hits the market with it first, capatilizes.

 

[MoreBoost]

Sweet. Hexon part 2 in the making...

Initial feedback: Awesome, great deal, spool awesome- made good power too! Sometimes when spool I may hear some shrieking though. Any ideas?

3-6 months later: Car is smoking a bit. Not sure if it is the PCV system, but it was all replaced including a new valve cover and also tried new oil drains. Any ideas?

6-12 months later: Mechanic pulled downpipes and found a bunch of play in the turbos. So I messaged the Ebay Store, they replied "Sorry about your issues. This store is now under new management and the Ebay Store has been renamed. You may wish to dispute with paypal." But I can't dispute with paypal as it has been too long. Any ideas?

12-18 months later: For sale ads: "Fully Cast Stage 2 turbos! Purchased brand new and one is in great condition (aside for some housing cracking) but the other is in need of immediate rebuild, $150 shipped for both to the USA"


Rob

Sounds like the RBs

 

[MoreBoost]

Guys of course the vendors selling you marked up turbos are going to slate these Chineses products.

In the past alot of Chinese products had issues with reliability and tolerances. I lived in Asia for 2 years. While over there I bought alot of products and guess what. Many failed prematurely but some were actually just as good as the vendor they were making them for. None of them were as critical as a turbocharger though.

Not being in the turbocharger business it's very hard to know how much value is added by the US and European based resellers. At the speeds these things spin the balancing is critical. You should get it done before fitting them but I wouldn't be running the RB for it.
I myself bought from one of the well known US vendors because the thought of having a turbo let go wasn't something I wanted to risk. I live in Europe so that meant stomaching a big cost. I know one person who bought direct from a Taiwanese vendor. Soon after the turbos let go and the engine damage wasn't good. It created a big mess. As I don't do the fitting etc myself I couldn't afford to keep throwing $1000 for the turbos to be installed, removed, reinstalled and having the car off the road. So factor that in. Plus it may often be a case of not knowing exactly whats wrong and what's needed to fix it. Parts, labor etc.

I've been lucky. I think I've now racked up over 20,000 miles on my turbos. I think the people with failures shout a lot louder than the people with working units. I've been on the N54 forums for a number of years now so I've seen quite a few things.
I find Rob's approach hilarious. His old Turbos have a real bad reputation. Just 2 days ago I was speaking with a friend who bought some of them and he told me he had to get them replaced. He sold them on and he's going twin scroll single turbo now. With Rob all you see is attacks on VTT. I know VTT don't have a great reputation and Tony often doesn't help himself.
I've had the GC units on my car for a good period now. I wasn't happy to hear about the 2.0 units so soon after buying them. My closest friend with an N54 ran the stage 1 VTTs for about 2 years. Never any problems and he now has the 2+.

Take everything with a pinch of salt and consider the motivation of each person posting.

Vegas, good luck with your turbos. You were in a position to try them when I wasn't. If they work out and I'd have still been on my stock turbos then I'd have probably bought a set as well. I wanted the power upgrade 14 months ago.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

I find Rob's approach hilarious. His old Turbos have a real bad reputation. Just 2 days ago I was speaking with a friend who bought some of them and he told me he had to get them replaced. He sold them on and he's going twin scroll single turbo now.

Could be a coincidence and perhaps just another case, but we were just contacted the other day about potentially refurbishing a set that was repurchased from a guy who went ST. The set in question was from ~2014. If it is the same case then one must be reasonable in that we have been building turbos for this platform since 2010 (and shipping 3+ sets a week ever since), and we certainly have never turned away rebuilds/rebranded/etc etc... there is a LOT to be said for these seemingly minor points. We would also agree that our latest generation turbos (of which have demonstrated a 0% failure rate over the past 1.5+ years) are built/balanced much better than the units from say 2014.

Rob

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Also you can go to any turbo shop to get it balanced. Check your local area for turbo repair. There are a lot of shops because of the huge amount of turbos on the market now coming stock on cars, trucks and diesels.

Not all shops have good equipment, and this goes for everyone. We didn't even have our own VSR until September 2014. IIRC Pure had acquired theirs around mid 2013. VTT picked up the Hobest VSR mid 2015. Pretty sure MMP still outsources for the VSR function, similar to what we had done initially as well. The problem with outsourcing is that you are at the mercy of the next shop to do the job to standards you'd like, but unfortunately they aren't likely to do for you due to the time it takes. It is also probable that they may not even have the most advanced equipment, meaning your builds further could suffer. This all can lead to inconsistent results, higher failure rates, and of course the bad reviews over time.

There are certainly tons of turbo repair shops but very few actually have a VSR, many rely solely upon a West Coast/Heins Balancer... which are way obsolete and far from accurate. This type of machine we used as well (for the low speed balancing function) until late 2016, and finally replaced with a Schenck TB Comfort for the low speed function. This machine is night and day difference from what we WERE using and what most others are using today and probably will for years to come... as many are not willing to stomach the cost of the cutting edge equipment. However these newer High and Low Speed machines are becoming better scaled (for smaller turbo businesses) in size and cost than they were years prior, so in time more and more will begin moving up to them.

In short the equipment is often a shortcoming to the build, and also the time/experience the operator may utilize with it all as well. Some work for quantity, some work for quality; but you have to have the correct tools to steer you in the right direction too. This is a tricky field and there certainly is a lot to learn for the new "turbo builder", as many "experts" or "resources" are not the best to listen too either- sometimes we in the industry have to learn this the hard way.

Lastly and as seen in our link above VSR results can be poor and you still have a turbo that was "VSR balanced"- so this is why one should be asking for their actual balance reports. Wearing the consumer hat, finding out precisely what machines the shop is using and having the balancing reports provided would be absolutely mandatory for a purchase.

Rob

 

[Milan]

If I had the time/money I would love to collect data on items that are constantly for sale and quality. For example, do you ever realize how RB Turbos hardly come up for sale used? I think it's because they are all still on people's cars and working. Items that are known buggy, or of lesser quality, are ALWAYS up for sale. Ever notice how VRSF stuff is always for sale used? I think it's because people are buying the better product to update to, but don't want to say poor quality is why they are selling. For awhile there Hexons were always for sale, I think it's because people realized the quality wasn't there and upgraded.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

If I had the time/money I would love to collect data on items that are constantly for sale and quality. For example, do you ever realize how RB Turbos hardly come up for sale used? I think it's because they are all still on people's cars and working. Items that are known buggy, or of lesser quality, are ALWAYS up for sale. Ever notice how VRSF stuff is always for sale used? I think it's because people are buying the better product to update to, but don't want to say poor quality is why they are selling. For awhile there Hexons were always for sale, I think it's because people realized the quality wasn't there and upgraded.

Just to put it out there if anyone has any ole "beat down" Classic RB's feel free to shoot us an email- we can get them to new condition for a reasonable rebuild charge or we'd 100% be interested in buying them outright as well. Doesn't matter if they are from 2010, 2012, etc; they always seem to pull a good value and we are certainly willing to purchase them back as well. A big reason for this is we know they are good quality components just waiting to be refurbished to a new life... these units certainly are NOT throwaways.

But yeah RB resales are not really common and when they are they seem to go pretty quick for good $$$.

Rob

 

[langsbr]

If I had the time/money I would love to collect data on items that are constantly for sale and quality. For example, do you ever realize how RB Turbos hardly come up for sale used? I think it's because they are all still on people's cars and working. Items that are known buggy, or of lesser quality, are ALWAYS up for sale. Ever notice how VRSF stuff is always for sale used? I think it's because people are buying the better product to update to, but don't want to say poor quality is why they are selling. For awhile there Hexons were always for sale, I think it's because people realized the quality wasn't there and upgraded.

I'd have to disagree here. I think you see lower horsepower level items for sale more often - so, smaller intercoolers that VRSF makes, for people upgrading to larger ones. Same with hybrids - you see stage 2s or MMPs going up for sale when people just say to hell with it and want 800+ HP and go big single.

I think RBs come up for sale less because I think there are less of them on the market. Perhaps in 2010 or 2012 they had a large portion of the market, but 6 - 8 years later I think they do not. I know Rob has said they are busier than ever, which definitely may be the case. They just happen to be people that have no internet presence whatsoever, never post to forums, have never heard of facebook, and are the 'super top secret' 'won't share my dynos' with anyone people. Now, that's not to say there aren't those out there - there are, and likely many of them. BUT - I would argue that they are not the only ones going to RB - they use every vendor, so you have an equal distribution of that across all vendors. But we rarely, if ever see current data from RBs, so that leads me to deduct that there are a LOT less RB users now vs. other vendors.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

I think RBs come up for sale less because I think there are less of them on the market. Perhaps in 2010 or 2012 they had a large portion of the market, but 6 - 8 years later I think they do not. I know Rob has said they are busier than ever, which definitely may be the case.

There certainly is not less RB's being sold, if that is what you meant? The market is just becoming very large and people like talking about newer stuff in general, but it doesn't mean the "old brands" aren't still being distributed as they always have. Eventually these same guys talking about the "new stuff" will start airing the reality of their experiences, too; but count on waiting some years gone by for this one. There is a big difference when you start selling to a platform 2 years ago vs. 8 years ago.

On the note of demand we are busier than ever this season, literally so slammed it is to the point of pushing back orders as this moment; it is just too much stress to take on too much of a load at one point and working "slow and steady" is what we'd prefer to keep quality up. We are setup to handle ~150 setups a year, and as I personally build each unit there is really no interest in doing more.

Rob

 

[langsbr]

Exactly my point - you mention how busy you are, how many are sold, but when you look for the customers - they are nowhere to be found. Interesting. The only RB results I've seen are the ones that went 129 or 130 in the 1/4 like 4 years ago...Where's the current results?

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Exactly my point - you mention how busy you are, how many are sold, but when you look for the customers - they are nowhere to be found. Interesting. The only RB results I've seen are the ones that went 129 or 130 in the 1/4 like 4 years ago...Where's the current results?

That's the thing the guys are turning the same times, getting the same peformance results; so there is not much more to share? Also the results are still the same or in some cases better than all of the new "better" setups. Coincidence? Not sure but we typically do not scout out results and post the same results over and over, it gets a bit old after the first few years and we are now five years beyond that. Also if you are looking for big power (and we have said this a gazillion times over the years), go buy a ST kit. Our focus has been RELIABILITY as the variable with the performance as being the constant, there is substantial rewards for this philosophy but it takes time to realize.

If you want some "current" RB results there are a couple forum RHD guys talking in some Australian threads running the low 11.0@130+mph range- but agree once again this is not anything knew. Some other guy just emailed about his Beta RB Twos that literally demolished his retired Brand X Stage "3"s at his local 1/8 dragstrip too on his first time out- because they actually have great boost response. Will these customers ever post about this stuff online? Not sure, it would be nice, we just hear about it as with everything daily via phone and emails and it is not our first inclination to make the post ourselves about it.

Rob

 

[Milan]

I think RBs come up for sale less because I think there are less of them on the market. Perhaps in 2010 or 2012 they had a large portion of the market, but 6 - 8 years later I think they do not. I know Rob has said they are busier than ever, which definitely may be the case. They just happen to be people that have no internet presence whatsoever, never post to forums, have never heard of facebook, and are the 'super top secret' 'won't share my dynos' with anyone people. Now, that's not to say there aren't those out there - there are, and likely many of them. BUT - I would argue that they are not the only ones going to RB - they use every vendor, so you have an equal distribution of that across all vendors. But we rarely, if ever see current data from RBs, so that leads me to deduct that there are a LOT less RB users now vs. other vendors.

Well that's ironic then because for all the hype MMP turbos (2017/2018 flavor of the year) have, you sure as hell don't see many results with them. Do some searches on N54s going 10's, most of them are on RBs. Tony does a good job of providing results for his own stuff but you rarely see it from customers.