Upgraded T04 turbos for less $ than stock! Wtf? Link inside

[namsu2430]

This company in the UK is selling the same turbos.

Product Page | Willow Performance

www.willowperformance.co.uk

19t’s are £1049 plus shipping

They are offering 12 months 12000 miles warranty

When asked about shipping to the USA he said £40.

They are offering to ceramic coat and balance them before sending them to you.


For the 17t I had a form for reviews

N54 Chinese Turbos feedback form

To help those who are wanting feedback about these turbos and so that we don't have to answer the same questions over and over again in the WhatsApp group.

docs.google.com

I have 9 responses so far all positive. One person has done 20k+ without issues.
If you have had failure/issues and can back it up please submit.

 

[ajpagosa]

I get the logic but it's really more a strawman. I know someone running the VIV sold turbos and is doing well with them (E85), and has customers running them. Over time this is bearing out to be a reliable setup (Whatsapp group et al). Who else sells the same setup as VIV ... don't know and I wouldn't speculate. Maybe someone will deterministically bear this out. In the $1k price range, there are 4 options: used turbos (crapshoot), rebuild OE turbos with a reliable shop (RB et al), general chinesium choices (total crapshoot), and the VIV turbos. If I was in the market for $1k solution, I'd give the VIV stuff a serious look - there is enough information and history to make a reasonably informed decision.

Filippo

It's not a strawman argument if the stated "QC" is just a fake balance sheet. Is it likely who knows? I am merely hypothesizing that a few good ones could randomly come out of absolutely no QC (or even cursory balancing) at all, and that might explain some of the fanboy reaction as more or less honest but not necessarily representative. I spent a good part of my career doing stat modeling so what is obvious to me as a possibility may not be to others.

Back to lurking. Caveat emptor you guys.

AJ

 

[fmorelli]

I agree the sheets in particular would be a big negative mark. Problem with modeling is that models don't trump reality. Except for economists. If one does enough real-world research, one will discover that there is not one-off experiences, but rather quite a number of folks who have put a good bit of miles on the VIV setups. That's no guarantee - but I'll take real world experience that exists over hypotheticals any day.

Remember - the failing of most models is that sample real data gives voracity to logic. A year ago I would have agreed 100% because everything you said would be logical conclusion in the face of very little real-world evidence. Further, the world of twins historically is failure-ridden. But there is enough real-world information now to say that's not quite the case here. No need to lurk, though! That's just counterpoint.

Filippo

 

[ajpagosa]

I agree the sheets in particular would be a big negative mark. Problem with modeling is that models don't trump reality. Except for economists. If one does enough real-world research, one will discover that there is not one-off experiences, but rather quite a number of folks who have put a good bit of miles on the VIV setups. That's no guarantee - but I'll take real world experience that exists over hypotheticals any day.

Remember - the failing of most models is that sample real data gives voracity to logic. A year ago I would have agreed 100% because everything you said would be logical conclusion in the face of very little real-world evidence. Further, the world of twins historically is failure-ridden. But there is enough real-world information now to say that's not quite the case here. No need to lurk, though! That's just counterpoint.

Filippo

Thanks for your thoughts. Just to clarify, statistical modeling of the type I refer to is not "modeling" of the kind that has gotten such bad press with the virus and say, climate change. It is based on real data and just tries to determine things like the mean and variance of tolerance errors (better still the actual stat distribution) of an actual set of real samples. If you had an entire production run you could determine that exactly without any guesswork whatsoever.

I merely wanted to explain a process by which the people who are happy with these things may not actually be shills or liars, they might in fact have decent units, but also explains the high failure rate of others.

AJ

 

[rev210]

Tough bit is any sample less than 30 is statistically invalid. So a numbers game discussion should really try to start with at least 30 users , the more the better.
Evidence like "I did 20k or 50k miles and so did 3 others" or on the other hand " I know 3 guys who blew oil seals" isnt remotely conclusive till you have a good number.
Still great to collect the data till then though. Reccomendations based on this are therefore going to be somewhat reckless.

The simple approach is to understand that having a turbo set 'survive' , isnt amazing. It is nothing but, the minimum expectation. As is the process of refund or replacement for goods that are not functioning as described. Faults happen.
Ultimately these are 'so what?' convos.

Taking something to impressive performance or achieving a record is certainly more interesting. Realising advertised capabillities in horsepower for example. Stg4 / 19ts are a case of yet to be proven or perhaps false advertising.


What we have seen in the community , from hexons and others is when enough people are burnt (usually well beyond 30) the patterns are stong enough to avoid. Chinesiums are a little different in that new brands pop up all the time and its not immediately clear if they are pushing the same dodgy gear.

 

[b4llistic]

EDIT: Thanks your finding and reading my post. Unfortunately, Spoolstreet is no longer a neutral platform where we can have honest discussions on subjects and products freely.
For this reason I have deleted all information I posted on the forums.

 

[typedRew]

ill still be installing mine, not expecting perfection or customer service from parts i bought to be cheap out of a mass production facility in china

 

[Noxide]

From this entire thread, the worst part is somehow this douche nozzle keeps pulling stuff like this and getting away with it. At least with these China turbos you get SOMETHING delivered. Even jpworkz would deliver some others. Andy is no better than a regular Facebook scammer that takes payment and then blocks people. I bet this guy has scammed over 100k of of people by now.

I didn't realise it was so well known or that my comment would be welcome, I thought he had or has some kind of allegiance to this forum.

Unfortunately I'm in the UK so I didn't know any thing about Andy. I was recommended his pistons by usually reliable figure in the community. I ordered King Race bearings, 11mm head bolts and the pistons. Bearings and bolts arrived, never any pistons. The last contact I had with him was on the 31st of October 2019 when he agreed to give me an refund - I never heard another word from him since.

 

[island road]

Status update on my damaged 19T's; Still no response from the supplier after daily messages from my side.

Steer clear of these 19T's for now guys as these are deff not properly assembled and/or are built from parts that did not pass quality control.

I am no stranger to Chinese turbos, in fact Back when Hexon was on the scene I helped them get into the N54 market, was in direct contact with them on a weekly basis, trying out new turbos and one of my cars is still running their turbos and a few other people I know without issues. There is a lot of mis-information spread about that company but keeping it simple later down the road after they got larger as that Hexon Division management changed, the main person in change was removed from his position, new management wanted more profits less quality and then that was the end of Hexon.

I had tested two different ST kits on my car from CES with Steed Speed manifold and a GTX3582r to VM with BB 6466. Being that my car is a E61 I did not want to pay thousands or 1/3 or more of the cars value in the price of a ST kit. I do know quality and would of loved to fit a ST kit on the car but this is just my daily and I don't need 700hp anything within the high 500whp will be fine. Any Cheap bottom mounts are a no go due to the placement of the engine mount and I’m not about to go custom with a solid bushing.

With that being said I am in a good position to have no issues testing fitting kits and doing turbo installs. I see going for the 19T as a fun project, and don't mind testing the waters.

@b4llistic - I am not sure who you bought from but I did go through viv-autoparts. I did not buy a 3rd party warranty (Square Trade I know does not cover these parts I called and asked) but I bought through eBay and PayPal protection so I'm not that worried.

I don’t have the turbos just yet but as for customer service to date this is my experience: I had originally bought the 17T from them and a week later the 19T released. I called to cancel my order and re-order the 19T but it was to late and the turbos were already on a pallet headed my way. They were very communicative during this process, refunded my shipping, took some more off the turbo and are in the process of sending me the 19T without any upcharge. Thus my customer service experience has been better than some US companies I have dealt with.

When I do receive the turbos, they will be taken fully apart, I will post some detailed pictures for everybody to see with measurement’s included. I already have a shop that is going to VSR balance them for $75 each core with return shipping included. I will post of whatever VSR sheets they come with (Not even sure they come with Sheets) and also the new balance sheets from the shop to compare.

This is a fun experiment for me, and I’m looking forward to seeing how this goes. My expectations are set very low. I bought a sub 1k turbo from china, I don’t expect quality control to be the same as BW or Garret and I don’t expect the VSR to be dead under 0.2g up to 160k RPM. If its safe to run then I am going to slap them on if not we will see about returns.

I should have an update within a few weeks once they arrive.

 

[foe516]

I am no stranger to Chinese turbos, in fact Back when Hexon was on the scene I helped them get into the N54 market, was in direct contact with them on a weekly basis, trying out new turbos and one of my cars is still running their turbos and a few other people I know without issues. There is a lot of mis-information spread about that company but keeping it simple later down the road after they got larger as that Hexon Division management changed, the main person in change was removed from his position, new management wanted more profits less quality and then that was the end of Hexon.

I had tested two different ST kits on my car from CES with Steed Speed manifold and a GTX3582r to VM with BB 6466. Being that my car is a E61 I did not want to pay thousands or 1/3 or more of the cars value in the price of a ST kit. I do know quality and would of loved to fit a ST kit on the car but this is just my daily and I don't need 700hp anything within the high 500whp will be fine. Any Cheap bottom mounts are a no go due to the placement of the engine mount and I’m not about to go custom with a solid bushing.

With that being said I am in a good position to have no issues testing fitting kits and doing turbo installs. I see going for the 19T as a fun project, and don't mind testing the waters.

@b4llistic - I am not sure who you bought from but I did go through viv-autoparts. I did not buy a 3rd party warranty (Square Trade I know does not cover these parts I called and asked) but I bought through eBay and PayPal protection so I'm not that worried.

I don’t have the turbos just yet but as for customer service to date this is my experience: I had originally bought the 17T from them and a week later the 19T released. I called to cancel my order and re-order the 19T but it was to late and the turbos were already on a pallet headed my way. They were very communicative during this process, refunded my shipping, took some more off the turbo and are in the process of sending me the 19T without any upcharge. Thus my customer service experience has been better than some US companies I have dealt with.

When I do receive the turbos, they will be taken fully apart, I will post some detailed pictures for everybody to see with measurement’s included. I already have a shop that is going to VSR balance them for $75 each core with return shipping included. I will post of whatever VSR sheets they come with (Not even sure they come with Sheets) and also the new balance sheets from the shop to compare.

This is a fun experiment for me, and I’m looking forward to seeing how this goes. My expectations are set very low. I bought a sub 1k turbo from china, I don’t expect quality control to be the same as BW or Garret and I don’t expect the VSR to be dead under 0.2g up to 160k RPM. If its safe to run then I am going to slap them on if not we will see about returns.

I should have an update within a few weeks once they arrive.

did Viv ship yours yet? when i inquired may 18th they said 135/535 fitment would be ready in about 10 days. i have not purchased yet, i just got done doing turbos from another company that gets china cores and after i reinstalled i wasn't boosting, checked all over for boost leaks and it turns out the wastegates aren't opening with 20psi through a mightyvac. my only options are pull the turbos and send them back, wait for them to repair and reinstall or my other thought was just buy another set and install and when i get the other turbos back just sell them. i have not had my car since march 2019.

 

[island road]

did Viv ship yours yet? when i inquired may 18th they said 135/535 fitment would be ready in about 10 days. i have not purchased yet, i just got done doing turbos from another company that gets china cores and after i reinstalled i wasn't boosting, checked all over for boost leaks and it turns out the wastegates aren't opening with 20psi through a mightyvac. my only options are pull the turbos and send them back, wait for them to repair and reinstall or my other thought was just buy another set and install and when i get the other turbos back just sell them. i have not had my car since march 2019.

Again with Viv-autoparts customer service, they emailed me today saying the 19T will be shipping next week Thursday or Friday as they are waiting for the turbos from the factory with 135/535 fitment.

 

[fmorelli]

did Viv ship yours yet? when i inquired may 18th they said 135/535 fitment would be ready in about 10 days. i have not purchased yet, i just got done doing turbos from another company that gets china cores and after i reinstalled i wasn't boosting, checked all over for boost leaks and it turns out the wastegates aren't opening with 20psi through a mightyvac. my only options are pull the turbos and send them back, wait for them to repair and reinstall or my other thought was just buy another set and install and when i get the other turbos back just sell them. i have not had my car since march 2019.

Yes but all that initial outlay money is being saved!

Filippo

 

[langsbr]

it turns out the wastegates aren't opening with 20psi through a mightyvac.

Can you explain this better? Why would you put 20psi thru the wastegates, and why would the not be opening? By default they are open, and they close when vacuum is applied, and it only take 6" of vacuum for them to be fully closed.

 

[foe516]

sorry - brain fart, after a boost leak test and checking the solenoids the wastegates were the last piece of the puzzle, put a mighty vac and starting pumping to see if i could see the rear one close, got up to 20" and it barely moved.

 

[b4llistic]

EDIT: Thanks your finding and reading my post. Unfortunately, Spoolstreet is no longer a neutral platform where we can have honest discussions on subjects and products freely.
For this reason I have deleted all information I posted on the forums.

 

[typedRew]

I am no stranger to Chinese turbos, in fact Back when Hexon was on the scene I helped them get into the N54 market, was in direct contact with them on a weekly basis, trying out new turbos and one of my cars is still running their turbos and a few other people I know without issues. There is a lot of mis-information spread about that company but keeping it simple later down the road after they got larger as that Hexon Division management changed, the main person in change was removed from his position, new management wanted more profits less quality and then that was the end of Hexon.

I had tested two different ST kits on my car from CES with Steed Speed manifold and a GTX3582r to VM with BB 6466. Being that my car is a E61 I did not want to pay thousands or 1/3 or more of the cars value in the price of a ST kit. I do know quality and would of loved to fit a ST kit on the car but this is just my daily and I don't need 700hp anything within the high 500whp will be fine. Any Cheap bottom mounts are a no go due to the placement of the engine mount and I’m not about to go custom with a solid bushing.

With that being said I am in a good position to have no issues testing fitting kits and doing turbo installs. I see going for the 19T as a fun project, and don't mind testing the waters.

@b4llistic - I am not sure who you bought from but I did go through viv-autoparts. I did not buy a 3rd party warranty (Square Trade I know does not cover these parts I called and asked) but I bought through eBay and PayPal protection so I'm not that worried.

I don’t have the turbos just yet but as for customer service to date this is my experience: I had originally bought the 17T from them and a week later the 19T released. I called to cancel my order and re-order the 19T but it was to late and the turbos were already on a pallet headed my way. They were very communicative during this process, refunded my shipping, took some more off the turbo and are in the process of sending me the 19T without any upcharge. Thus my customer service experience has been better than some US companies I have dealt with.

When I do receive the turbos, they will be taken fully apart, I will post some detailed pictures for everybody to see with measurement’s included. I already have a shop that is going to VSR balance them for $75 each core with return shipping included. I will post of whatever VSR sheets they come with (Not even sure they come with Sheets) and also the new balance sheets from the shop to compare.

This is a fun experiment for me, and I’m looking forward to seeing how this goes. My expectations are set very low. I bought a sub 1k turbo from china, I don’t expect quality control to be the same as BW or Garret and I don’t expect the VSR to be dead under 0.2g up to 160k RPM. If its safe to run then I am going to slap them on if not we will see about returns.

I should have an update within a few weeks once they arrive.

who are you having balance them?

 

[ajpagosa]

54321

Tough bit is any sample less than 30 is statistically invalid. So a numbers game discussion should really try to start with at least 30 users , the more the better.
Evidence like "I did 20k or 50k miles and so did 3 others" or on the other hand " I know 3 guys who blew oil seals" isnt remotely conclusive till you have a good number.
Still great to collect the data till then though. Reccomendations based on this are therefore going to be somewhat reckless.

The simple approach is to understand that having a turbo set 'survive' , isnt amazing. It is nothing but, the minimum expectation. As is the process of refund or replacement for goods that are not functioning as described. Faults happen.
Ultimately these are 'so what?' convos.

Taking something to impressive performance or achieving a record is certainly more interesting. Realising advertised capabillities in horsepower for example. Stg4 / 19ts are a case of yet to be proven or perhaps false advertising.


What we have seen in the community , from hexons and others is when enough people are burnt (usually well beyond 30) the patterns are stong enough to avoid. Chinesiums are a little different in that new brands pop up all the time and its not immediately clear if they are pushing the same dodgy gear.

Actually that N=30 thing is not meaningful. It's sort of an old rule of thumb developed in the dark ages to make certain distributions look more like normal (gaussian) ones or so that the central limit theorem can be employed. I mean I learned it way back when but turns out not to be true, it persists for some reason. Plenty of references out there. The bigger problem is self-reported results aren't random samples, like how invalid internet polls are. However we shouldn't let perfect get in the way of good enough. We just need more good real world data (customer feedback is fine).

 

[rev210]

54321


Actually that N=30 thing is not meaningful. It's sort of an old rule of thumb developed in the dark ages to make certain distributions look more like normal (gaussian) ones or so that the central limit theorem can be employed. I mean I learned it way back when but turns out not to be true, it persists for some reason. Plenty of references out there. The bigger problem is self-reported results aren't random samples, like how invalid internet polls are. However we shouldn't let perfect get in the way of good enough. We just need more good real world data (customer feedback is fine).

Good point on the self reported results.

 

[b4llistic]

EDIT: Thanks your finding and reading my post. Unfortunately, Spoolstreet is no longer a neutral platform where we can have honest discussions on subjects and products freely.
For this reason I have deleted all information I posted on the forums.

 

[Threetirtyfive]

As you would expect for turbos costing less than a 3rd of every competitor.