Issues with waterpump and/or cooling

[Snowman]

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584641&page=2

Thanks, but i have no corrosion at any of the connectors on the battery and everything is nice and tight back there.

 

[Rcboosted2007]

Did you pop the red cover off

 

[fmorelli]

Today i fitted a brand new VDO/Continental/Siemens WP.
Guess what, didnt fix anything....
This is the behavior i get from the wp when i try to run the bleeding process.

Any ideas before i start tearing it appart and selling it as scrap/parts?

Ok first off I can't imagine how frustrating this is for you. I just spent 10 minutes re-reading the whole thread, to make sure I had fresh in my mind where you are at. I also looked up the TIS and read the SIB on E90post. I'd like to go back to something - you tested the pin voltages at the WP connector, and @NoQuarter concurred they seem to be correct and match the TIS. Because some times the WP works, but seems to have issues when it is hot, I have a couple questions, if I may:

• When you checked the voltage, was the pump operational and pumping?
• When you show the latest video, is this with the engine hot, once it fails, or is it doing it immediately on startup?
• Did you check the voltages while the pump is ticking in the video?

@NoQuarter Aside from the correlations in the bullets above, I'm wondering if there could be a ground-side issue? When the pump goes to full load. This is a 12-year-old car. Seems like we've been trying to chase down the power side. But that said, a ground-side could have resistance that shows up in higher amperage (like full load), but this behavior is far more in line with a component getting hot somewhere. But first off before going down this path of discussion, I'd like to know about the measurement questions in the bullets.

Finally ... and not to admit defeat, but I'd actually consider taking it to the dealer. Given the cost of the pump and headache, a diagnostic from the BMW dealer could help, simply because they are more likely to see lots of these and might sort out what your problem is rather quickly.

Filippo

 

[Snowman]

Did you pop the red cover off

Yes i have had it removed, what were you thinking of?

 

[fmorelli]

Also, this is the text from the E90Post which the OP referenced - just putting it here in case someone didn't follow it, and because I don't trust E90post being around .

Filippo

--- cut here ---

SI B12 04 05
Engine Electrical Systems October 2008
Technical Service
This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B12 04 05 July 2007.

[NEW] designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
Check Engine Lamp Illuminated and/or Vehicle Overheats MODEL
[NEW] E83 (X3) with N52K engine
[NEW] E85 and E86 (Z4) with N52 engine

[NEW] E70 (X5) with N52K engine

[NEW] E90, E91, E92 and E93 (3 Series) with N51, N52 and N52K engines

[NEW] E60 and E61 (5 Series) with N52 and N52K engine

[NEW] All models above produced up to December 31st, 2006

SITUATION
The customer complains that the Check Engine lamp is illuminated and/or that the vehicle overheated. One or more of the following fault codes is stored in the DME:
FC 2E81 Electric coolant pump, speed deviation, speed outside the tolerance

FC 2E82 Electric coolant pump cutoff, over-current

FC 2E83 Electric coolant pump, power-reduced operation, dry run

FC 2E84 Electric coolant pump, communication

FC 2E85 Electric coolant pump, communication, no voltage at emergency operation input of pump

CAUSE
One of the following can be the cause:
- Insufficient power supply
- Insufficient grounding
- BSD signal not present
- Defective electric coolant water pump
- Electric coolant pump water pump processor disturbance
PROCEDURE A
This procedure only applies to vehicles produced after September 1, 2005. Both faults must be stored; if any other combination of the faults is stored, refer to procedure B. - FC 2E81 Electric coolant pump, speed deviation, speed outside the tolerance
- FC 2E85 Electric coolant pump, communication, no voltage at emergency operation input of pump
1. Remove both battery cables from the battery for 15 minutes .
2. After reconnecting the battery cables, clear the vehicle fault memory and ensure that the electric coolant pump operates using the bleeding procedure, described at the end of this bulletin.
PROCEDURE B
This procedure applies to all vehicles with any combination of faults listed below.
FC 2E81 Electric coolant pump, speed deviation, speed outside the tolerance

FC 2E82 Electric coolant pump cutoff, over-current

FC 2E83 Electric coolant pump, power-reduced operation, dry run

FC 2E84 Electric coolant pump, communication

FC 2E85 Electric coolant pump, communication, no voltage at emergency operation input of pump

NOTE: All measurements should be performed with the battery charger connected to the vehicle. 1. Measure the following at connector X6035 on the electric coolant water pump: - E90 and E91 - Pin 1 (fuse F09) and Pin 4 ground (X6455) = 12 volts
- E60 and E61 - Pin 1 (fuse F23 and Pin 4 ground (X6455) = 12 volts
- Pin 2 (fuse F02) and Pin 4 ground (X6455) = 12 volts
- Pin 3 BSD signal (DME Pin 26) and Pin 4 ground (X6455) = 7.5 - 8.5 volts - If any of the above measurements are incorrect, continue troubleshooting using the DIS Plus or GT1 to determine the source of the problem.
- If all of the above measurements are correct, proceed to step 2.


2. Replace the electric coolant water pump (PN 11 51 7 546 994) in accordance with Repair Instruction RA 11 51 000.
3. After performing any service work requiring draining of the coolant, the system must be bled to ensure that there are no air pockets present. The system can be bled using the DISplus/GT-1 or by following a special procedure. To bleed the system, follow the procedure described at the end of this bulletin.

BLEEDING (VENTING) THE COOLING SYSTEM

NOTE: BMW recommends filling the cooling system for protection against freezing down to -34 degrees F (-37 degrees C) ; this is an antifreeze ratio of 50% antifreeze and 50% water. In severely cold areas, the antifreeze can be increased to 60%, which provides freezing protection down to -62 degrees F (-52 degrees C) . Do not exceed a 60% ratio of antifreeze.
The specified antifreeze ratio is important, since an insufficient amount would impair antifreezing and corrosion-inhibiting protection. An excessive amount would not improve freezing protection, but would instead reduce freezing protection. At all times, the antifreeze and water should be premixed before pouring into the engine. If premixing is not performed, damage will occur to the water pump assembly.

NOTE: Always connect a battery charger while performing the bleeding process. 1. Fill the system with coolant via the expansion tank (AGB). Top up the coolant level to the lower edge of the expansion tank.
2. Close the expansion tank.
3. Switch on the ignition.
4. Set heating to the maximum (temperature); switch on the blower (lowest stage).
5. Press the accelerator pedal module to the floor for at least 10 seconds . The engine must NOT be started.
6. Bleeding via EWP takes approximately 12 minutes . Then check the coolant level in the expansion tank; top up to the MAX marking if necessary.
7. Check the cooling circuit and drain the plugs for leaks.
8. If the procedure needs to be repeated several times, allow the DME to completely de-energize (remove the ignition key for approx. 3 minutes ) and then repeat the procedure, starting from item 3.


Read more: scanned a 2006 525xi and codes 2ef5,2e81,2a82,2e82 present have - JustAnswer http://www.justanswer.com/bmw/2ds7s-...#ixzz1bSPt36Zs

 

[Rcboosted2007]

Thanks, but i have no corrosion at any of the connectors on the battery and everything is nice and tight back there.

To clarify, im not referring to corrosion.

 

[Snowman]

Ok first off I can't imagine how frustrating this is for you. I just spent 10 minutes re-reading the whole thread, to make sure I had fresh in my mind where you are at. I'd like to go back to something - you tested the pin voltages at the WP connector, and @NoQuarter concurred they seem to be correct and match the TIS. Because some times the WP works, but seems to have issues when it is hot, I have a couple questions, if I may:

• When you checked the voltage, was the pump operational and pumping?
• When you show the latest video, is this with the engine hot, once it fails, or is it doing it immediately on startup?
• Did you check the voltages while the pump is ticking in the video?

@NoQuarter Aside from the correlations in the bullets above, I'm wondering if there could be a ground-side issue? When the pump goes to full load. This is a 12-year-old car. Seems like we've been trying to chase down the power side. But that said, a ground-side could have resistance that shows up in higher amperage (like full load), but this behavior is far more in line with a component getting hot somewhere. But first off before going down this path of discussion, I'd like to know about the measurement questions in the bullets.

Finally ... and not to admit defeat, but I'd actually consider taking it to the dealer. Given the cost of the pump and headache, a diagnostic from the BMW dealer could help, simply because they are more likely to see lots of these and might sort out what your problem is rather quickly.

Filippo

Huge thanks to you for reading up on the thread and trying to be of assistance!

When i checked the voltage i disconnected the connector and then measured into it.
I have tried measuring both when the wp stops working and also when it works, always with the connector disconnected from the wp.
The latest video is just after i fitted the wp, in the video i tried to run the bleeding sequence to bleed out air from the system, so it did it right away.
No i did not check the voltage since i dont have anything to measure the voltage from the rear of the connector.

What im thinking of doing next is replacing the battery distribution block on top of the battery.. It looks fine, but i dont have much else to do now before handing it over to the dealer..
The worst part is though that i wont be able to get the car anywhere as it sits right now..

 

[Snowman]

To clarify, im not referring to corrosion.

What were you referring to then? Loose connectors?

 

[fmorelli]

Huge thanks to you for reading up on the thread and trying to be of assistance!

Of course. We pay it forward here .

When i checked the voltage i disconnected the connector and then measured into it.
I have tried measuring both when the wp stops working and also when it works, always with the connector disconnected from the wp.

When it works and when it stops you have the same exact voltage readings on the pins?

The latest video is just after i fitted the wp, in the video i tried to run the bleeding sequence to bleed out air from the system, so it did it right away.

The engine was cold, you installed the water pump, and it just tics right from the start, while cold?

No i did not check the voltage since i dont have anything to measure the voltage from the rear of the connector.

Above you said, "When i checked the voltage i disconnected the connector and then measured into it." - what do you mean you don't have anything to measure the voltage from the rear of the connector?

What im thinking of doing next is replacing the battery distribution block on top of the battery. It looks fine, but i dont have much else to do now before handing it over to the dealer.

IMHO it's time to stop throwing parts at it. Spend a hour of diagnostic time with the dealer and see what they come up with.

Filippo

 

[Rcboosted2007]

Did you verify continuity at these points? You will need any type of multi meter. No need for a high dollar fluke.

 

[Snowman]

Of course. We pay it forward here .

When it works and when it stops you have the same exact voltage readings on the pins?

Correct

The engine was cold, you installed the water pump, and it just tics right from the start, while cold?

Correct

Above you said, "When i checked the voltage i disconnected the connector and then measured into it." - what do you mean you don't have anything to measure the voltage from the rear of the connector?

I just have one of these multimeters and i dont think i can squeze them into the back of the connector without damaging wires, even if i can get it into the connector.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mvkgt3i4L._SL1200_.jpg

IMHO it's time to stop throwing parts at it. Spend a hour of diagnostic time with the dealer and see what they come up with.

Filippo

The problem is that i would need to get the car towed or on a flatbed to teh dealer and then pay them for troubleshooting, that would add up to arounr 500-700usd and a car that is stuck at the dealer, if i need to get it back to my garage that would be an additional 200-400usd.. So i would be looking at 700-1100usd just for transportation to/from the dealer and troubleshooting..

 

[Snowman]

View attachment 14681 Did you verify continuity at these points? You will need any type of multi meter. No need for a high dollar fluke.

No, however if it would be broken i assume the wp would be completly dead?
If a fuse is blown stuff usually dont partially work, correct?

 

[Rcboosted2007]

A

Of course. We pay it forward here .

When it works and when it stops you have the same exact voltage readings on the pins?

The engine was cold, you installed the water pump, and it just tics right from the start, while cold?

Above you said, "When i checked the voltage i disconnected the connector and then measured into it." - what do you mean you don't have anything to measure the voltage from the rear of the connector?

IMHO it's time to stop throwing parts at it. Spend a hour of diagnostic time with the dealer and see what they come up with.

Filippo[/QUOTE agree with Filippo. If you are unsure of what your troubleshooting yields, and or doubt your following testing procedures correctly. Its usually cheaper to know when to fold em. Im also confused on you saying you have no device for measuring voltage. A local auto parts house can possibly rent you such device free of charge,or with a refundable deposit.

 

[Snowman]

A

Im not saying i dont have something to measure voltage with.
Its just that space is very limited if i would want to measure from the back of the connector, also i would need something that preferably has flexible ends and also quite thin. My multimeter is a cheap one which doesnt have either of those options.. Also check my previous post why i dont want to get it to a dealer atm..

 

[Rcboosted2007]

No, however if it would be broken i assume the wp would be completly dead?
If a fuse is blown stuff usually dont partially work, correct?

Not exactly. Circumstances exist were power bridges these style fuse in the form of an arc. As in my situation and the situation in the e90 post. He replaced tstat and pump, it worked fine, then was out again. Same thing happened to me, and it looks like the same thing(including pump tick) is happening to you. Never assume. Its good to trust but its better to verify.

 

[Rcboosted2007]

Pull the smaller red cable out the dist box, and plug it into the next slot over to the right. It is an oversized port. But! It will provide power to the pump and eliminate one variable. I actually left mine in that spot and secured it with a fastner. Saved $150

 

[Rcboosted2007]

Once you move the wire over. Initiate the bleed sequence.( please note) a few people have had software issues that did ( NOT ) let them do this bleed procedure. They had to use a program to run the pump. If you have previously successfully done the bleed procedure, your okay.

Next you can go to the fuse 40 or 50 amp in the front fuse/dme box located under your air filter cowl( in the front bonnet/hood) engine bay. Place one lead to a verified ground lug and then place the other onto the top of the exposed metal portion of the fuse.

Set your meter to DC volt.and test voltage here on each side of the fuse blade. At full force i measure 14vdc.in my previous photo of the large 50amp fuse. You can see the small metal dots where your meter WILL fit.

 

[Snowman]

Once you move the wire over. Initiate the bleed sequence.( please note) a few people have had software issues that did ( NOT ) let them do this bleed procedure. They had to use a program to run the pump. If you have previously successfully done the bleed procedure, your okay.

Next you can go to the fuse 40 or 50 amp in the front fuse/dme box located under your air filter cowl( in the front bonnet/hood) engine bay. Place one lead to a verified ground lug and then place the other onto the top of the exposed metal portion of the fuse.

Set your meter to DC volt.and test voltage here on each side of the fuse blade. At full force i measure 14vdc.in my previous photo of the large 50amp fuse. You can see the small metal dots where your meter WILL fit.

Thanks! I will try and swap the connectors on the distribution box and also measure the voltage at the fuse as you adviced.

 

[Snowman]

One baby step forward.
I ripped the red cover off the box but mine looks different so I can't connect it to a new spot.

However I measured the voltage at the fuse when the pump tries to start and it fluctuates badly between 6-11v, the battery is connected to a charger and the voltage is at a steady 12,8v

 

[Snowman]

I have now also checked the actual ground wire from the car to the engine, near the left side of the engine bay. The actual wire was a bit corroded as expected but the mounts were fine and resistance was good