Technical Ignition Coil Secondary Spark Energy Comparison (N54/N55, B58 and PR)

[Msport335]

Can anyone tell me what this does and if it could possibly be the issue I'm having with major timing correction? Its pretty damn hot to the touch given the engine is completely cooled since this morning. Running eldor coils from fcp... getting corrections up to -8 deg. Been through the entire fuel system and everything's good there

 

[fmorelli]

Which component in the diagram is it? Not obvious from what you posted.

 

[Msport335]

What I'm looking for is the ignition coil interference capacitor....my dme box does not look like it has one in there...all I see is the black relay which is hot to the touch

 

[Dgw7000]

Can anyone confirm correction problems with these Eldor b58 coils? Some are saying they are bootleg coils being sold and not the original factory BMW B58 coils you get at the dealership!! I bought six from Beemerworld and considering sending them back and just buying the original from BMW to avoid any potential problems when I installed a kit on my car!!

 

[SlowE93]

Can anyone confirm correction problems with these Eldor b58 coils? Some are saying they are bootleg coils being sold and not the original factory BMW B58 coils you get at the dealership!! I bought six from Beemerworld and considering sending them back and just buying the original from BMW to avoid any potential problems when I installed a kit on my car!!

If you are that worried about it, I would buy from whoever you are most comfortable with.
One individuals experience will vary from others.

 

[_Calle_]

I run the kit for about 1500 miles, unfortunately I noticed that 4 out of 6 springs have burn marks at the spring end that is in the coil.
The contact surface in the coil also.

The problem is, that the spring touches the plastic cone in the coil, so the spring do not touch the contact surface of the coil, see also the schematic.

Does anyone else have the problem?

 

[bahn]

I run the kit for about 1500 miles, unfortunately I noticed that 4 out of 6 springs have burn marks at the spring end that is in the coil.
The contact surface in the coil also.

The problem is, that the spring touches the plastic cone in the coil, so the spring do not touch the contact surface of the coil, see also the schematic.

Does anyone else have the problem?

Hey Calle, we've seen this happen two times now and it seems to be related to manufacturing tolerances of the ignition coil itself. What brand of coil are you running and where did you purchase it from? The samples I have in hand do not have a plastic cone inside (see picture below). We also did a dychem test to ensure the spring is contacting the secondary contact.

 

[_Calle_]

Hey Calle, we've seen this happen two times now and it seems to be related to manufacturing tolerances of the ignition coil itself. What brand of coil are you running and where did you purchase it from? The samples I have in hand do not have a plastic cone inside (see picture below). We also did a dychem test to ensure the spring is contacting the secondary contact.

Hi Bahn,
my Coils are OEM BMW so it is Eldor, from a low mileage Car.
It is definitely not depend on the manufacturing tolerances of the coil. This is a functional area, so the tolerance will be maximum +- 0,10mm.
I think it is more depend on the aftermarket springs. If you take a look at the picture with the three spring, you see there are all different.

 

[bahn]

Hi Bahn,
my Coils are OEM BMW so it is Eldor, from a low mileage Car.
It is definitely not depend on the manufacturing tolerances of the coil. This is a functional area, so the tolerance will be maximum +- 0,10mm.
I think it is more depend on the aftermarket springs. If you take a look at the picture with the three spring, you see there are all different.

Can you please send a picture of the coil and the part number? I ask because I have Bosch and OEM Eldor BMW coils on hand and neither have the plastic cone seen inside your coil, I want to see what the date code is as there's a possibility BMW made some design changes. I took a couple quick measurements for you. OEM BMW Eldor on left, Bosch on Right. Smallest inside diameter before the coil contact is 8 mm.

Notice no plastic cone inside of either.

Smallest diameter inside the coil before the contact: 8.0 mm

Depth to bottom center of contact 11.15-11.20 mm (note: The shoulder of the contact is raised about 2mm so contact with the widening portion of the spring can be achieved at a depth of ~9 mm)

Widest section of our spring at a depth of 9-12mm (I went through about 10 springs and this is the widest with most around 7.50-7.55 mm)

That cone design inside your coil seems to be the issue. Send me some pictures of the model & index number and if needed we'll modify the spring design to work with that coil design as well and send you a set for free.

Thank you,
Austin

 

[Dgw7000]

Hi, any more information on the solution for the burnt springs? Getting ready to install my kit and I have the factory BMW Eldor coils. Springs in the kit are definitely too wide preventing the spring making good contact at the bottom of a coil. BMW factory springs are half the thickness. Austin let me know what you came up with! I want to feel confident that I’m installing this kit without any design problems. Can you see the size of the factory BMW B 58 coil spring on top!!

 

[SlowE93]

No offense to anyone here, but am I the only one who sees "upgrading" ignition coils to just NOT be worth it ?
Many raved about the PR set up, until the carbon issue from the boots, now many HATE them.
R8 coils and crappy connectors plus reported fires.
Now this spring issue on these.
Are all you guys misfiring that bad ? Or trying to gain power through ignition upgrade ?
I am confused.

 

[Maroon_e90]

No offense to anyone here, but am I the only one who sees "upgrading" ignition coils to just NOT be worth it ?
Many raved about the PR set up, until the carbon issue from the boots, now many HATE them.
R8 coils and crappy connectors plus reported fires.
Now this spring issue on these.
Are all you guys misfiring that bad ? Or trying to gain power through ignition upgrade ?
I am confused.

A more powerful spark reduces timing corrections/misfires. So yes to both questions

 

[bahn]

Hi, any more information on the solution for the burnt springs? Getting ready to install my kit and I have the factory BMW Eldor coils. Springs in the kit are definitely too wide preventing the spring making good contact at the bottom of a coil. BMW factory springs are half the thickness. Austin let me know what you came up with! I want to feel confident that I’m installing this kit without any design problems. Can you see the size of the factory BMW B 58 coil spring on top!!

Hey there, this is the second set of coils I've seen with the plastic cone near the contact. Must be a newer revision, thank you for the pictures. I sent you an email regarding trying our new springs that I designed for these coils (which are rare)

 

[wheela]

A more powerful spark reduces timing corrections/misfires. So yes to both questions

Throughout the forums, I see people lump misfires and timing corrections together. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't misfires and timing corrections two completely different things?

My understanding:
-Misfires: the mixtures is not ignited by the ignition event, or not iginted on the initial spark pulse on a multi-spark set up. Detected by crank position sensor not accelerating crank rotation as expected when that cylinder is supposed to fire. DME's response? Doesn't the DME basically do nothing in response to misfires, other than monitor them and shut down that cylinder if the misfires continue and exceed some occurrence threshold?

-Timing Corrections: The DME's response to pre-ignition in the cylinder detected acoustically by the knock sensor. Pre-ignition has many potential causes, but I don't think any of those causes have anything to do with failure of the ignition event to ignite the mixture (mis-fire), no?

So if this is the case, how can hotter sparks improve corrections? If anything, could the hotter spark leave more residual heat in the tip of the plug, actually increasing liklihood of knock and timing corrections?

So unless you don't have enough ignition energy to reliably ignite the mixture on the first spark of a multi-spark set-up (ie bad coils, high boost, high e/rich, etc.), are there any performance gains to be had by increasing the spark energy? Serious question, there is conflicting information about this everywhere you look.

 

[Maroon_e90]

Throughout the forums, I see people lump misfires and timing corrections together. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't misfires and timing corrections two completely different things?

My understanding:
-Misfires: the mixtures is not ignited by the ignition event, or not iginted on the initial spark pulse on a multi-spark set up. Detected by crank position sensor not accelerating crank rotation as expected when that cylinder is supposed to fire. DME's response? Doesn't the DME basically do nothing in response to misfires, other than monitor them and shut down that cylinder if the misfires continue and exceed some occurrence threshold?

-Timing Corrections: The DME's response to pre-ignition in the cylinder detected acoustically by the knock sensor. Pre-ignition has many potential causes, but I don't think any of those causes have anything to do with failure of the ignition event to ignite the mixture (mis-fire), no?

So if this is the case, how can hotter sparks improve corrections? If anything, could the hotter spark leave more residual heat in the tip of the plug, actually increasing liklihood of knock and timing corrections?

So unless you don't have enough ignition energy to reliably ignite the mixture on the first spark of a multi-spark set-up (ie bad coils, high boost, high e/rich, etc.), are there any performance gains to be had by increasing the spark energy? Serious question, there is conflicting information about this everywhere you look.

I would say you are pretty close. A cylinder will ping if its not ignited at the exact right time. Which results in the corrections. In my experience if the Corrections are so bad 6*+ the DME will throw misfire code and shut the cylinder off. I believe this is because the ignition gets too uncontrollable and the DME wants to protect the engine under boost. I would say a misfire is a very broad category from predetonation to not igniting at all.

Another thing is this is not a case of hotter or colder sparks the spark plugs insulator will disipate the heat into the head. Its has to do with the amount of energy in the spark which can increase the length (gap) as well as the duration allowing a higher chance of ignition at the right time.

My understanding is that the stock coils do not supply enough energy to reliably ignite ethanol and even sometimes gasoline. I have seen timing corrections go away with stronger coils. IE when your coils are getting "old" and the car is now correcting alot its time for new coils.

 

[SlowE93]

I would say you are pretty close. A cylinder will ping if its not ignited at the exact right time. Which results in the corrections. In my experience if the Corrections are so bad 6*+ the DME will throw misfire code and shut the cylinder off. I believe this is because the ignition gets too uncontrollable and the DME wants to protect the engine under boost. I would say a misfire is a very broad category from predetonation to not igniting at all.

Another thing is this is not a case of hotter or colder sparks the spark plugs insulator will disipate the heat into the head. Its has to do with the amount of energy in the spark which can increase the length (gap) as well as the duration allowing a higher chance of ignition at the right time.

My understanding is that the stock coils do not supply enough energy to reliably ignite ethanol and even sometimes gasoline. I have seen timing corrections go away with stronger coils. IE when your coils are getting "old" and the car is now correcting alot its time for new coils.

I run full E85 with no issues. I fully understand the stronger spark allowing for a larger gap in plugs, etc.
I just don't get the fascination/ need for all these set ups.
Want, understood.
Need, do not understand.
I would think that over the entire n54 platform users, maybe 1 or 2% NEED an upgrade like this.
I mean, MHD guys on stage 1, 1+, 2, 2+ etc should not "need" anything like this IMO.

 

[SLOWESTN54]

I have to agree with @SlowE93 here. I run Eldors in my E92. Ran up to 27-28 psi depending on how hot it was outside with e50 for fuel. Zero timing corrections, plus that's in extreme conditions we were touching 40*C and i still wasn't having issues. If i ever saw corrections it would be maybe 2* and it would come right back. I totally understand the purpose of kits like these for the 5% that have built motors. But does this really help a stock turbo car or even a sub 650whp car?

 

[SlowE93]

A more powerful spark reduces timing corrections/misfires. So yes to both questions

So are you running these ?
If so, what mods on your car ?

 

[Maroon_e90]

In three years and 45k miles I’ve gone through three sets of coils 2 Bosch and 1 Eldor. So even if the performance aspect is negligible for most people upgraded coils won’t just lose their effectiveness after some time or if they do you can go a longer period before realizing. Personally, I think most of it comes down to hype or people doing what they are told, but there are some solid reasons to get them time-wise/financially as well.

Additionally, I had to drop plug gap from 22 thou to 18 thou when switching to e50 this was on 26 psi on 10*. So some people have good luck and maybe I just need to replace my Eldors again but to me the performance of the coil is pretty weak once you start running higher boost and ethanol. So that’s why it is included in my upcoming single turbo build.

 

[wheela]

In three years and 45k miles I’ve gone through three sets of coils 2 Bosch and 1 Eldor. So even if the performance aspect is negligible for most people upgraded coils won’t just lose their effectiveness after some time or if they do you can go a longer period before realizing. Personally, I think most of it comes down to hype or people doing what they are told, but there are some solid reasons to get them time-wise/financially as well.

Additionally, I had to drop plug gap from 22 thou to 18 thou when switching to e50 this was on 26 psi on 10*. So some people have good luck and maybe I just need to replace my Eldors again but to me the performance of the coil is pretty weak once you start running higher boost and ethanol. So that’s why it is included in my upcoming single turbo build.

So would you say that you'd start getting timing corrections, and they'd go away when you replaced your coils?

I've been starting to see more timing corrections lately, particularily on cylinder 3, and have been wondering if it's crap winter gas, or if something is going on with my engine. MHD stage 2+ 93oct, no misfire codes, relatively new oe plugs w/ stock gap, but original coils with just over 60k miles on them. Maybe I should swap the cylinder 3 coil around and see if the corrections follow it. Maybe it's time for some new coils.

I was thinking of replacing my original coils with these b58's when the time comes, not because I need them now, but because I'd like to upgrade the turbo soon and thought these coils would help me run stock gap with higher boost. Not sure that I'd need these, I'd just hate to buy coils twice if original coils don't cut it down the road.