Debate Did the VTT "Spline Lock" Crank hub slip?

[Panzerfaust]

You're still applying ad-hominem and I truly don't understand why. You don't have to be on this platform for 2 weeks to realize there's something fishy about VTT, and it doesn't take much longer than that to investigate the record as it sits. It's the internet, everything has a date. I've seen recent (last 6-12 months) facebook and forum posts that help to build this opinion, (on top of issues like GC V1.0s) and I'm not sure why you're so intent on putting words in my mouth. I have never mentioned RB and VTT's issues and they have nothing to do with the opinion that VTT is unprofessional when it comes to interacting with their customers.




Begs the question, why did you keep responding?



You could have participated in a discussion about the importance of vendor reputation, but instead you got nowhere.

My points are clear and everyone's need to call "SpEcUlAtIoN" doesn't address them, it just makes the point stronger. Further, it's hilarious that you're calling fallacies on me. The initial fallacies started with ad-hominem and false dichotomies, both directed at me, for noting that "Maybe we should be weary of VTT's products given the issues that have cropped up and the general lack of professionalism." Nobody who has spoken against me personally (panzerfaust, fmorelli) wants to address this simple point. If you're not addressing my point, then why are you responding directly to me?

Can anyone explain to me how context and reputation doesn't matter in this case (crank hub failure)?

I'm still all ears, 5 nonsense replies later.

And I'll paste it here once more:
I'd love to be wrong on my hunch that the hub slipped because VTT's solution failed. I WELCOME IT. But it's interesting to see that the other side wants to forget about years of shoddy customer service and arrogant attitudes because "ThAt'S bIaSeD sPeCuLaTiOn!" Well, isn't it funny that there's so much bias to forget about the relevant context

I did address it. By pointing out that theres no such mass-recognized issues, outside of a shitty subgroup of a subgroup of the platform. I also offered several instances that prove the contrary, even though the burden of proof for someone being guilty (aka "they're known to be bad with bad products... because I dont like them") should be on the accuser - aka you.

 

[kayzrx82]

Back on topic, I've seen pictures from Ghassan but I'm not sure he's posted publicly so I'll refrain from saying anything specific. But it does not look good for the spline lock.

Damn...

If Ghassan could chime in and let us know what happend, that would be best. He's buiilt a ton of motors and his opinion on the matter would be an accurate source. I personally would like to see the pictures.

I'm interested in Robs proposal for a hub fix. I believe a straight cut version with some tweaks would be a cost effective version.

 

[veer90]

Damn...

If Ghassan could chime in and let us know what happend, that would be best. He's buiilt a ton of motors and his opinion on the matter would be an accurate source. I personally would like to see the pictures.

I'm interested in Robs proposal for a hub fix. I believe a straight cut version with some tweaks would be a cost effective version.

Robs proposal for hub fix is worth less than the keyboard he typed that BS on.

 

[doodlebro]

I did address it. By pointing out that theres no such mass-recognized issues, outside of a shitty subgroup of a subgroup of the platform. I also offered several instances that prove the contrary, even though the burden of proof for someone being guilty (aka "they're known to be bad with bad products... because I dont like them") should be on the accuser - aka you.

For the record, you put words in my mouth specifically about Rob & Tony's beef (I've never mentioned anything about that). You also provided one anecdotal example from your life which doesn't say much in the grand scheme. You didn't really address my points, you just vomited thoughts around them. I had no problem backing up my opinions with the public record that's all over the internet. Literally go google "VTT vargas problems" and there are plenty of examples of people who see the same crap in recent time. If you choose to make yourself blind to that world, that's on you.

So none of that context matters because you had one good experience with VTT and "YoUr ArGuMeNtS aRe 5 YeArS oLd"?

 

[kayzrx82]

Robs proposal for hub fix is worth less than the keyboard he typed that BS on.

If Rob has proposed a fix and has data to show it works or has a sound hypothesis on its potential to work, I don't see why it is not a viable option.

Lets not turn this into a pissing match between vendors.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

If Rob has proposed a fix and has data to show it works or has a sound hypothesis on its potential to work, I don't see why it is not a viable option.

Lets not turn this into a pissing match between vendors.

To be clear I'm not at all saying any hub of the vice grip "locking" style hub is the ultimate answer. All I've said is that we can get literally the same part for pennies on the dollar thus avoiding the astronomical markup, from the manufacturer who is producing it today.

So it makes no sense (or shall we say cents) to pay 4x the amount for the same part. And in the process we could even enhance it to whatever specs we like, for example something that always struck me right off is that straight cut splines would be better to hold timing relationships during install. Another example is that the thing just is NOT going to dig deeper as advertised, which is another reason why straight splines would work just as well to "lock" assemblies (by means of etching).

All of this aside rather than potentially sling anymore junk to the platform than what has been done already, I'm all for sitting back and seeing what comes forth with at least the Ghassan (or other) setups out there. Or the market can decide which route they want to take, if you want it regardless and without insane markup it can be done. No big deal here either way, however it is absolute insanity to pay the current costs on these parts.

Rob

 

[veer90]

If Rob has proposed a fix and has data to show it works or has a sound hypothesis on its potential to work, I don't see why it is not a viable option.

Lets not turn this into a pissing match between vendors.

No, my point was Rob's literally just in here to shitpost. He's posting to entertain himself for the fuck of it because it's a VTT thread and he's still got beef. Adding no value at all. Please keep quoting me so he can read this btw, he blocked me after I called him on his bullshit once upon a time.

I think it's been established here that a splined design doesn't work, period. Unless you have the metallurgy to actually dig the hub into the crank which VTT doesn't appear to, with information I'm privy to at this time.

Same material for pennies on the dollar? Please Rob you mean the same material that failed? Please tell us more about how much "research" you've done on the crank hub issue. I'm expecting you to post another PDF from bmw engineering like with your turbos instead of actually answering the question.

 

[Panzerfaust]

For the record, you put words in my mouth specifically about Rob & Tony's beef (I've never mentioned anything about that). You also provided one anecdotal example from your life which doesn't say much in the grand scheme. You didn't really address my points, you just vomited thoughts around them. I had no problem backing up my opinions with the public record that's all over the internet. Literally go google "VTT vargas problems" and there are plenty of examples of people who see the same crap in recent time. If you choose to make yourself blind to that world, that's on you.

So none of that context matters because you had one good experience with VTT and "YoUr ArGuMeNtS aRe 5 YeArS oLd"?

I didnt put words in your mouth, I never said you specifically mentioned any RB vs VTT posts. I simply stated that's where the vast, vast majority of the hate towards VTT comes from - Tony didn't like Robs trolling bullshit just like many of us don't, and he gave less of a fuck about forum rules than many of us do so he would say things that were sometimes out of line such as personal insults.

You've yet to provide any modern examples of VTT doing poor by their customers or having such shitty products that no one will use them. I posted about how BMS and Ghassan both have used VTT products for quite some time including very recently and up until now, without issue, as well as my own personal positive experiences simply as a means to provide proof to the contrary of what you posted since you've yet to provide any evidence of *why VTT specifically* shouldn't be trusted. The closest youve come to providing proof was saying to Google for old failure posts, which is another reason why I mentioned that MOST companies who've pushed the limits at some point on this platform have had failures, especially early on in the platforms life and early on in certain product's lifespans too. Theres a reason there's the GC 2.0s yes, just like theres a reason theres a new Boostbox, new Fuel-IT setups, and why RB and Hexon dont make turbos that they used to.

Think of how many issues theres been with various generations of Xbox's or any Windows bugs over the past 3 decades - does that mean that Microsoft is a bad company who cant make any good products? Or does that mean that the common sense of "dont be an early adopter or modify your things if you want 0 risk of issues" rings true? The issue here to me still sounds like you just dont like VTT, simply nothing more.

 

[kayzrx82]

No, my point was Rob's literally just in here to shitpost. He's posting to entertain himself for the fuck of it because it's a VTT thread and he's still got beef. Adding no value at all. Please keep quoting me so he can read this btw, he blocked me after I called him on his bullshit once upon a time.

I think it's been established here that a splined design doesn't work, period. Unless you have the metallurgy to actually dig the hub into the crank which VTT doesn't appear to, with information I'm privy to at this time.

Same material for pennies on the dollar? Please Rob you mean the same material that failed? Please tell us more about how much "research" you've done on the crank hub issue. I'm expecting you to post another PDF from bmw engineering like with your turbos instead of actually answering the question.

A splined design can work if implemented correctly. There are a lot of processes in manufacturing that utilized pressed in splines for transferring torque from one part to another. I think what Rob is saying is that the same part that VTT is currently selling with a 4x margin can be acquired for less and can be customized to a different spec. Splines coupled with the factory friction disk would work. Some R&D would have to be done of course.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

A splined design can work if implemented correctly. There are a lot of processes in manufacturing that utilized pressed in splines for transferring torque from one part to another. I think what Rob is saying is that the same part that VTT is currently selling with a 4x margin can be acquired for less and can be customized to a different spec. Splines coupled with the factory friction disk would work. Some R&D would have to be done of course.

While I'd prefer a keyway'd hub, a solid etch could still help retain component adhesion. For the most part otherwise BINGO, the larger point here was that this part cost pennies to purchase. So low cost hopefully it holds together even WITHOUT considering slipping whatsoever, really pity anyone who bought into it at that markup...

And hilarious this veer guy can still completely agree with you and still find a way around that to argue. Still a bit scorned after I told him his MMPs were going to fail like everyone else had, told everyone RB was an idiot with old turbos. Wouldn't you know 4 months later he was dealing with blown MMP's, and RB was still the idiot. Now here I have been calling out this spline hub due to advertising vs. actual functionality, as it was very clear that the part worked only by a lock by etch strategy (and it can never "dig deeper"). Now 4 months later the spline lock is appearing to be a bust in his eyes, and RB's still the idiot. All too funny.

Rob

 

[doodlebro]

I didnt put words in your mouth, I never said you specifically mentioned any RB vs VTT posts. I simply stated that's where the vast, vast majority of the hate towards VTT comes from - Tony didn't like Robs trolling bullshit just like many of us don't, and he gave less of a fuck about forum rules than many of us do so he would say things that were sometimes out of line such as personal insults.

You've yet to provide any modern examples of VTT doing poor by their customers or having such shitty products that no one will use them. I posted about how BMS and Ghassan both have used VTT products for quite some time including very recently and up until now, without issue, as well as my own personal positive experiences simply as a means to provide proof to the contrary of what you posted since you've yet to provide any evidence of *why VTT specifically* shouldn't be trusted. The closest youve come to providing proof was saying to Google for old failure posts, which is another reason why I mentioned that MOST companies who've pushed the limits at some point on this platform have had failures, especially early on in the platforms life and early on in certain product's lifespans too. Theres a reason there's the GC 2.0s yes, just like theres a reason theres a new Boostbox, new Fuel-IT setups, and why RB and Hexon dont make turbos that they used to.

Think of how many issues theres been with various generations of Xbox's or any Windows bugs over the past 3 decades - does that mean that Microsoft is a bad company who cant make any good products? Or does that mean that the common sense of "dont be an early adopter or modify your things if you want 0 risk of issues" rings true? The issue here to me still sounds like you just dont like VTT, simply nothing more.

Sorry, but you're just not getting it.... There's no burden of proof for a reputation that exists on its own and has existed for some time.

Good lord, how much shilling do you have to do? Blue in the face yet?

Anyways, you can stop replying if you disagree since I don't think there's much more for you to say: You don't think the past matters, some of us here do. Gonna be real funny if the spline ended up failing and all that "We solved the problem!!!" gets questioned along with testing methodology.

 

[KevinC39]

More drama in here than an episode of reality TV.

 

[veer90]

While I'd prefer a keyway'd hub, a solid etch could still help retain component adhesion. For the most part otherwise BINGO, the larger point here was that this part cost pennies to purchase. So low cost hopefully it holds together even WITHOUT considering slipping whatsoever, really pity anyone who bought into it at that markup...

And hilarious this veer guy can still completely agree with you and still find a way around that to argue. Still a bit scorned after I told him his MMPs were going to fail like everyone else had, told everyone RB was an idiot with old turbos. Wouldn't you know 4 months later he was dealing with blown MMP's, and RB was still the idiot. Now here I have been calling out this spline hub due to advertising vs. actual functionality, as it was very clear that the part worked only by a lock by etch strategy (and it can never "dig deeper"). Now 4 months later the spline lock is appearing to be a bust in his eyes, and RB's still the idiot. All too funny.

Rob

Keep harping on my old MMPs Rob. That dyno post was a shoutout for my previous tuner, meanwhile they put down more power than any of your weak ass turbos will ever make.

Facts remain you're a chronic shitposter who's done no research on the crank hub issue. Previously you've admitted to having no N54 internal engine work experience, period. Everyone in this thread including VTT is more qualified than you in that regard.

The adults are talking, why don't you go to your room?

 

[doublespaces]

Bingo. Write a bashing post and lace it with a little bit of information or a question. Internet Shit Sandwich.

Filippo

This is in the Octagon now, shit sammich's for everyone!

 

[doodlebro]

Looks like Ghassan announced a newly engineered solution after working with an expert. Doesn't use splines and is cheaper than VTT's solution.

Huh. Interesting.

 

[ccbsecu]

Wait...wasn’t the spline lock tested under extreme conditions?

 

[kayzrx82]

So we pretty much aren't going to get to hear what happened to make this slip or if there is an issue with the current design of this product?

 

[doodlebro]

So we pretty much aren't going to get to hear what happened to make this slip or if there is an issue with the current design of this product?

On bimmerpost someone said that the spline lock is getting disassembled by Ghassan this weekend, so I think just a bit more waiting.

Doesn't look great at face value though. Ghassan co-developing a solution points to a limited range of issues...

 

[kayzrx82]

On bimmerpost someone said that the spline lock is getting disassembled by Ghassan this weekend, so I think just a bit more waiting.

Doesn't look great at face value though. Ghassan co-developing a solution points to a limited range of issues...

Someone mentioned they saw pictures of the damage. I think it has been opened up.

 

[veer90]

Looks like Ghassan announced a newly engineered solution after working with an expert. Doesn't use splines and is cheaper than VTT's solution.

Huh. Interesting.

Cheaper yes but only available if you purchase an engine from them. Which makes sense since it involves notching crank and gears.

Someone mentioned they saw pictures of the damage. I think it has been opened up.

Not sure about rest of the assembly but I've seen the splines. It doesn't look pretty lol