Debate Did the VTT "Spline Lock" Crank hub slip?

[kayzrx82]

VTT's reputation is really no worse than others these days. Most of the flack they get comes from people on FB brand new to the platform who's only "experience" with VTT is reading decade-old arguments between Tony and Rob. For many of us who've been around for a while, theres plenty of VTT parts that are widely used, sought after, or were wanted for the platform from day one that no one else offers to this day. Whether that be a metal valve cover, the oil cap breather, an excellent all-in-one customizable CC solution, being the first to offer true TD04 sized turbos or Garrett turbos, being the first with any (functional especially) DI-only fueling solutions- VTT did it and has not only gained but deserves respect from any unbiased consumers.

Every company has had their failures or has a handful of complaints due to the whole "quiet majority, loudest minority" effect - people complain about Motiv's products (usually because they dont keep their electrical system maintained), about VS being a scammer (not realizing it's a one man operation selling 100% custom parts and hes primarily just an enthusiast himself), etc. Shit, on FB people complain about MHD being 'unreliable' because they get misfires after switching to it and running a more aggresive map than JB4 map 1 or 2, not realizing that "hey, maybe my car could use some maintenance", not to mention people thinking that burble is unsafe and MHD owes them a new turbo or engine when the user enabled it. Pure gets shit for being expensive or not getting close to making advertised HP numbers even when pushed. VRSF gets shit for being Chinese made or cloning company's products. RB gets shit for making essentially the same exact turbos now that he did in 2009. It's like companies on this platform can only do one-two of the following things because of the consumer base;
A. Keep making new offerings because they want to, yet potentially risk some of their reputation for doing so if something goes wrong or the user had unrealistic expectations or the product owner is at fault for any issue (MMP, Motiv, VTT, EoS, MHD)
B. Make limited quantities of higher-end or experienced hyper-enthusiast parts or custom designs without much regard for low cost or mass sales (EoS, DocRace, VS, several things in the MMP, PR and even VAC lineups)
C. Stick to easy-to-use, easy-to-make mass-produced simple parts that dont require much if any specific R&D and can sometimes be sourced or made from places that are used as a bad word by competition and some consumers (VRSF, BMS [with the exception of the JB4 to an extent], Fuel-It!, BMP)
D. Only ever offer a very small handful of successful but simple products that unfortunately might have taken years to accomplish, or are potentially sold at a high markup which could make the companies sales die down eventually (Fuel-iT!, BMP, RB Turbo, Pure, FTP, COBB

The companies that push boundaries and bring *new* things to the platform will have a failure on a product here and there as that's the nature of the beast when you're on un-treaded land. So what if it's VTT this time around? What if the hub failure *was* due to something other than the Splock spinning, is it still a bad part? If the Splock itself is the failure point, what if this is the only Splock that ever spins? Is it a bad part because of a bad company, or could it be that the combination of being on a full-blown racecar and running other parts that are contraindicated are the reason behind it? These are all rhetorical questions of course because I know how blind hate and the echochamber are on this platform - if you already dislike a company nothing will change most people's mind. But FWIW I've seen several people with built motors who went the Splock route already, including BMS who used it without issue at the semi-recent 1/2 mile event iirc. @Payam@BMS or @Terry@BMS can probably clarify that for you, and I also think @GhassanAutomotive has shipped several built motors with the Splock installed - any issues there yet guys?

Actually, if you've been around on the various different N54 forums for a while youd know the ATI dampener has been shown to cause issues several times to the point where I believe some vendors stopped even carrying it altogether and it became harder to find. I can think of two reasons why ATI would continue to sell it - one being profit, especially since they're the only ones who offer such a thing. Two, it might be that the Dampener doesn't cause issues for lower-power vehicles or that it's negative impact isnt felt by vehicles that arent at the top of the rev range for long periods of time - most BMW enthusiasts are either backroads-corner-chasers, AutoX drivers, or road course racing which would most likely mean more time is spent in the low to mid RPM range and not using large turbos or extra high revving when being pushed. Unlike those cars, a drag built car is going to see mid RPMs at their lowest during the launch, and high-mid to tip-top RPMs for the other 90% of the time.

Good on you though for realizing we need pictures and info from Ghassan and/or VTT before jumping to any conclusions on either side. No it's not a pinned crank or hub where it would be a bit more likely to stop any hub slip but still. Motiv ran Jake's all-out, giant ST and nitrous E90 just on stock slip disks for years without issue until very recently. Considering my understanding of how metallurgy, interference fitting and splining is, + the uniqueness of this build all together I'm still giving the SPLOCK the benefit of the doubt at this point.

Ive been on a lot of the forums for a long time. Ive only seen 3 cases where the ati dampeners gave issues. VTT being one of them. Another was an install error. the third was an oil pump nut backing off on an m54 engine which was blamed on the dampener. The m52/m54 motors are known for the nut backing off so that could have been just coincidence at the time. Ive worked on various BMW motors throughout the years and rebuild them for a long time. For a dampener to cause that much issue its either not tuned for the cranks resonant frequency, not zero balanced, or the viscous oil has leaked out or the urethane/ rubber is worn out. If its a tuning issue of the dampener, there would be alot more failure rates not to mention worn main bearings. The harmonic dampeners dissipate harmonic vibrations into heat at low to mid range revs as well while the motor is under load. I recall seeing where VTT said they had issues with the ATI dampener ,but no information was given as to what was happening except they said vibration was felt that went away when going back to the stock unit. That leads me to think the balancer may not have been zero balanced from the factory properly . They sold the ATI dampeners they were using, so im not sure how to interpret that.

When VTT released the Spline lock hub, I was the one that asked about the testing data and about the mechanics of the splines and was told that it would break a crank before slipping. It was marketed as a solution to end crank slipping. I understand when releasing a product you will have some bad product get through the cracks. The idea of the spline is sound but I had some concerns over a couple things which is why I asked about the testing method. I understand how manufacturing works as my background is in mechanical/ material/ and electrical engineering. Product testing requires multiple iterations of the test procedure using multiple iterations of, in this case cranks and hubs, to account for variances in tolerances of the machining of the snout of the crank and the variations of tolerances of the machining of the splines. Anything that is machined has a tolerance. Given that this particular application has the splines bottomed out on the face of the crank when installed, there is no more taper for the splines to grab in the event the friction of the splines against the snout is exceeded leading to a slip. In this case it is relying on the deformation the splines "keyed" into the snout which is why I had asked for pictures of the grooves the splines had cut into the crank. Its a sound idea but everything literally has to be perfect for it to work. I know a lot of people hate on certain vendors.

Yes VTT was very innovative with this product and some of their other product they sell, but there is nothing wrong with asking or questioning a testing methodology or preceding with caution when something is released. Ive seen countless vendors release products for BMWs and other brands that had a ton of issues, no engineering logic behind it and you could tell it was half assed in someones garage or put together with no concern for longevity, specifications of use, or the environment it is being placed into. It amazes me how those vendors have managed to do this and get away with it. I don't care if Dinan or BMW releases a product , if there are areas of concern or potential issues it should be questioned. This platform wouldn't have as many bad vendor as it does if more people stood up and expressed sound engineering based opinions or the vendors gave out sound data with their products. You almost get jumped on for questioning a vender on some forums as your perceived as a hater and all the fans of said vendor who have no engineering or mechanical background jump in for the kill. That type of hostilty turns off alot of people that know what they are doing from even trying to ask, question or give feedback. If this incident is a one off occurrence great. If its a tolerance issue, Im sure that can be fixed.

Also those saying hub slipping is HP related and that this was a race car so therefore its more prone to slipping, that is not entirely true. There are stock cars with stock tunes that have slipped. Its sudden changes in inertia that cause slipping or the bolt to back out. The full torque of the motor is not passed through the hub to the wheels, only what is needed to drive the accessories, valve train, and oil pump. The snout of the crank also transfers vibration to the harmonic damper.

I think most of the concern is not hate for VTT but simply if I'm using this solution to prevent a slip and its marketed to do so, It should do it. There is nothing wrong with expecting a product to do what it supose to do. Especially as this is a very critical part of the motor that keeps it in time. Its not like a breather that if it fails just blows oil everywhere or smokes, or a seal that fails and just leaks. Ive had a motor slip that took out all the exhaust valves, a few intake valves, snapped the timing chain, took out the oil pump, bent some rockers slamming the lifters into the head, damaged a cam lobe and finally bent the crank. Some people get lucky and just loose timing slightly, in my case I had to rebuild the entire motor. Ive put thousands into the built motor that replaced it, I damn sure want to make sure its not going to slip.

Lets just wait and see what happens and not speculate.

 

[Panzerfaust]

Ive been on a lot of the forums for a long time. Ive only seen 3 cases where the ati dampeners gave issues. VTT being one of them. Another was an install error. the third was an oil pump nut backing off on an m54 engine which was blamed on the dampener. The m52/m54 motors are known for the nut backing off so that could have been just coincidence at the time. Ive worked on various BMW motors throughout the years and rebuild them for a long time. For a dampener to cause that much issue its either not tuned for the cranks resonant frequency, not zero balanced, or the viscous oil has leaked out or the urethane/ rubber is worn out. If its a tuning issue of the dampener, there would be alot more failure rates not to mention worn main bearings. The harmonic dampeners dissipate harmonic vibrations into heat at low to mid range revs as well while the motor is under load. I recall seeing where VTT said they had issues with the ATI dampener ,but no information was given as to what was happening except they said vibration was felt that went away when going back to the stock unit. That leads me to think the balancer may not have been zero balanced from the factory properly . They sold the ATI dampeners they were using, so im not sure how to interpret that.

When VTT released the Spline lock hub, I was the one that asked about the testing data and about the mechanics of the splines and was told that it would break a crank before slipping. It was marketed as a solution to end crank slipping. I understand when releasing a product you will have some bad product get through the cracks. The idea of the spline is sound but I had some concerns over a couple things which is why I asked about the testing method. I understand how manufacturing works as my background is in mechanical/ material/ and electrical engineering. Product testing requires multiple iterations of the test procedure using multiple iterations of, in this case cranks and hubs, to account for variances in tolerances of the machining of the snout of the crank and the variations of tolerances of the machining of the splines. Anything that is machined has a tolerance. Given that this particular application has the splines bottomed out on the face of the crank when installed, there is no more taper for the splines to grab in the event the friction of the splines against the snout is exceeded leading to a slip. In this case it is relying on the deformation the splines "keyed" into the snout which is why I had asked for pictures of the grooves the splines had cut into the crank. Its a sound idea but everything literally has to be perfect for it to work. I know a lot of people hate on certain vendors.

Yes VTT was very innovative with this product and some of their other product they sell, but there is nothing wrong with asking or questioning a testing methodology or preceding with caution when something is released. Ive seen countless vendors release products for BMWs and other brands that had a ton of issues, no engineering logic behind it and you could tell it was half assed in someones garage or put together with no concern for longevity, specifications of use, or the environment it is being placed into. It amazes me how those vendors have managed to do this and get away with it. I don't care if Dinan or BMW releases a product , if there are areas of concern or potential issues it should be questioned. This platform wouldn't have as many bad vendor as it does if more people stood up and expressed sound engineering based opinions or the vendors gave out sound data with their products. You almost get jumped on for questioning a vender on some forums as your perceived as a hater and all the fans of said vendor who have no engineering or mechanical background jump in for the kill. That type of hostilty turns off alot of people that know what they are doing from even trying to ask, question or give feedback. If this incident is a one off occurrence great. If its a tolerance issue, Im sure that can be fixed.

Also those saying hub slipping is HP related and that this was a race car so therefore its more prone to slipping, that is not entirely true. There are stock cars with stock tunes that have slipped. Its sudden changes in inertia that cause slipping or the bolt to back out. The full torque of the motor is not passed through the hub to the wheels, only what is needed to drive the accessories, valve train, and oil pump. The snout of the crank also transfers vibration to the harmonic damper.

I think most of the concern is not hate for VTT but simply if I'm using this solution to prevent a slip and its marketed to do so, It should do it. There is nothing wrong with expecting a product to do what it supose to do. Especially as this is a very critical part of the motor that keeps it in time. Its not like a breather that if it fails just blows oil everywhere or smokes, or a seal that fails and just leaks. Ive had a motor slip that took out all the exhaust valves, a few intake valves, snapped the timing chain, took out the oil pump, bent some rockers slamming the lifters into the head, damaged a cam lobe and finally bent the crank. Some people get lucky and just loose timing slightly, in my case I had to rebuild the entire motor. Ive put thousands into the built motor that replaced it, I damn sure want to make sure its not going to slip.

Lets just wait and see what happens and not speculate.

I apologize if you took the first part of my post as being aimed at you, it was solely aimed at the other person I quoted as it seemed apparent to me that he's new to the platform and likely came to the forums from a FB group, which most of them are roughly 90% toxic and 10% useful.

As for the rest of this post (and your last one), I'm largely in agreeance with you. I mentioned the ATI dampener as I recall some users also mentioning issues such as vibration and even belt slipping/ snapping or extra wear, but maybe my memory is a bit hazy. Either way - hardly anyone runs them any more for one reason or another and I believe VAC is the only distributor of them now, likely due to complaints I'm sure.

I also agree that it's never unacceptable to ask for more data on a product, especially an important part of the engine and I dont see that as an attack at VTT. I agree at times it can seem like asking any question about certain vendors will get you flamed, but on the flip side it seems like no matter what some vendors post *they* are the ones who get the instant flaming whether justified or not - case in point the first post I quoted where the entire reasoning behind the posters doubt was "I dont like VTT."

However, your questions were justified and not just casting doubt in the name of stifling sales like RB was doing in that thread, and I think you understanding how physical properties and mechanics work was a large part of that. I also agree that any product should be able to do what its advertised as being able to do, but I still *do* think Ghassan's build could have had a lot to do with the slip. Yes stock hubs have slipped on stock cars too, but as you said crank hub slips are often a result of a drastic change in force on them - such as what happens at the drag strip when launching a car. HP might not make much of a difference to the hub, but I'd still be willing to bet that the TQ being supplied from Ghassan's monster of a 135 after using 2-step/launch control on slicks at a prepped strip could certainly make a difference in comparison to the other 99.9% of us making sub-1K HP (and more importantly, comparable tq), especially if running the full assembly but that's just my guess.

I do have faith in the product being a good preventative measure and also have high Hope's that it wasnt a failed Splock because I purchased one right away. As you said and like I stated in my original post too though, I'm definitely interested in pictures/results of what happened straight from the horses mouth rather than the "I told you so!"s on either side of the fence. Solid evidence always outweighs conjecture.

 

[fmorelli]

I agree at times it can seem like asking any question about certain vendors will get you flamed, but on the flip side it seems like no matter what some vendors post *they* are the ones who get the instant flaming whether justified or not - case in point the first post I quoted where the entire reasoning behind the posters doubt was "I dont like VTT."

Bingo. Write a bashing post and lace it with a little bit of information or a question. Internet Shit Sandwich.

Filippo

 

[kayzrx82]

I apologize if you took the first part of my post as being aimed at you, it was solely aimed at the other person I quoted as it seemed apparent to me that he's new to the platform and likely came to the forums from a FB group, which most of them are roughly 90% toxic and 10% useful.

As for the rest of this post (and your last one), I'm largely in agreeance with you. I mentioned the ATI dampener as I recall some users also mentioning issues such as vibration and even belt slipping/ snapping or extra wear, but maybe my memory is a bit hazy. Either way - hardly anyone runs them any more for one reason or another and I believe VAC is the only distributor of them now, likely due to complaints I'm sure.

I also agree that it's never unacceptable to ask for more data on a product, especially an important part of the engine and I dont see that as an attack at VTT. I agree at times it can seem like asking any question about certain vendors will get you flamed, but on the flip side it seems like no matter what some vendors post *they* are the ones who get the instant flaming whether justified or not - case in point the first post I quoted where the entire reasoning behind the posters doubt was "I dont like VTT."

However, your questions were justified and not just casting doubt in the name of stifling sales like RB was doing in that thread, and I think you understanding how physical properties and mechanics work was a large part of that. I also agree that any product should be able to do what its advertised as being able to do, but I still *do* think Ghassan's build could have had a lot to do with the slip. Yes stock hubs have slipped on stock cars too, but as you said crank hub slips are often a result of a drastic change in force on them - such as what happens at the drag strip when launching a car. HP might not make much of a difference to the hub, but I'd still be willing to bet that the TQ being supplied from Ghassan's monster of a 135 after using 2-step/launch control on slicks at a prepped strip could certainly make a difference in comparison to the other 99.9% of us making sub-1K HP (and more importantly, comparable tq), especially if running the full assembly but that's just my guess.

I do have faith in the product being a good preventative measure and also have high Hope's that it wasnt a failed Splock because I purchased one right away. As you said and like I stated in my original post too though, I'm definitely interested in pictures/results of what happened straight from the horses mouth rather than the "I told you so!"s on either side of the fence. Solid evidence always outweighs conjecture.

I didn't take anything personal. I 100% agree about the Facebook groups, they seem to be a a huge joke laced with very little usable information. I also agree VTT has people that bash them. More constructive questions based on less bias is needed.

 

[doodlebro]

I apologize if you took the first part of my post as being aimed at you, it was solely aimed at the other person I quoted as it seemed apparent to me that he's new to the platform and likely came to the forums from a FB group, which most of them are roughly 90% toxic and 10% useful.

Nice ad hominem. I'm actually a contributor if you took the time to look at my post history here, and I've been on the platform for close to 3 years now. You could address the point I'm making and not attack the source.

Much of my opinion of VTT is based on how their representatives act when called out, asked for proof, or make public statements about their products. You don't need much time to realize that they had plenty of issues with turbos, make arrogant posts on forums and Facebook and in general just do not carry themselves professionally. They constantly get pulled into arguments and make statements that they later go back on. For anybody intelligent on the platform, that kind of behavior from a vendor means never purchasing their products. There's too much s*** in the water to drink it, no matter what secrets the water contains.

Calling it like you see it doesn't make you a troll or toxic. None of my points have actually been addressed, and there's not a lot of speculation in evaluating a vendor's clear inability to be professional time and time again. If you really think that doesn't factor into it, I don't know what to tell you. Public image and professionalism goes a long way in this industry, and TBH VTT have been pretty defensive about the accusations that the hub slipped... It's telling.

 

[fmorelli]

Calling it like you see it doesn't make you a troll or toxic. None of my points have actually been addressed, and there's not a lot of speculation in evaluating a vendor's clear inability to be professional time and time again. If you really think that doesn't factor into it, I don't know what to tell you. Public image and professionalism goes a long way in this industry, and TBH VTT have been pretty defensive about the accusations that the hub slipped... It's telling.

I think it is interesting that people often believe that vendors should be held to a higher standard than the ad hominem, heckling crowds. In fact, God forbid someone point out that one of the masses is asking questions within a undermining/FUD/sucker punch style post, and woaw yeah we can't call that out.

The reality, like it or not, is that the crowd has every bit as much responsibility to have created the environment in which vendors respond. And frankly the general mannerism is that people can say whatever the hell they please, however they please, with whatever tone/indignation/arrogance/incredulity/acrimony they wish to convey. But the vendors, yeah they are not allowed.

That's how I see it. That's the other side of the coin being addressed.

Filippo

 

[doodlebro]

I think it is interesting that people often believe that vendors should be held to a higher standard than the ad hominem, heckling crowds. In fact, God forbid someone point out that one of the masses is asking questions within a undermining/FUD/sucker punch style post, and woaw yeah we can't call that out.

The reality, like it or not, is that the crowd has every bit as much responsibility to have created the environment in which vendors respond. And frankly the general mannerism is that people can say whatever the hell they please, however they please, with whatever tone/indignation/arrogance/incredulity/acrimony they wish to convey. But the vendors, yeah they are not allowed.

That's how I see it. That's the other side of the coin being addressed.

Filippo

Nobody but VTT's representatives have control over how they react to any environment, and they've proven time and time again that they don't want to be professional. They also shown they have no interest investing in a PR person who would prevent a lot of the issues that always get stirred up by preventing participation in the first place.

You're giving them an out for consistent unprofessional behavior because "LoOk At ThE eNvIrOnMeNt!" Pathetic defense. I've never had arrogance from vendors like VRSF or Pure... But VTT is given a double standard due to the environment? Pretty sure Pure and VRSF are both part of the same environment, along with hundreds of other vendors. Hell, Pure sent me the wrong turbo the first time and they handled everything so swiftly, it was like there hadn't been a problem at all.

It's like the saying: if you meet assholes all day you're probably the asshole... There is little to no evidence of drama free threads involving VTTs representatives.

And yeah, vendors do need to be held to a higher standard because they have put themselves in a position where they have customers. I'm not sure why you think otherwise but it's pretty silly. When you're representing more than just the skin on your back, the stakes go up.

 

[fmorelli]

Are you one of their customers?

Filippo

 

[doodlebro]

Are you one of their customers?

Filippo

Lordy, more ad hominem! Nice. Let me know when you want to address the points I'm making and not attack the source.

 

[fmorelli]

Not ad hominen at all. You mentioned the relationship of vendors with customers and italicized the word. I didn't know if you were speaking as one of their customers or if you're just voicing your opinion and you don't believe that anyone else should have one.

Filippo

 

[doodlebro]

Not ad hominen at all. You mentioned the relationship of vendors with customers and italicized the word. I didn't know if you were speaking as one of their customers or if you're just voicing your opinion and you don't believe that anyone else should have one.

Filippo

False Dichotomy. What else will you throw out?

I mentioned that since VTT is a business developing products for customers means they are held to a higher standard out of the gates. You seem to think that if a vendor is working in a difficult environment, that gives them a pass to act poorly... It's hilarious and I don't know why you apply a double standard, but you do.

Nothing in my post implies I believe nobody else should have an opinion on the matter, but it's interesting that you keep bringing up nonsense and failing to address my points. Fact: There is an ongoing reputation issue with VTT. To ignore that fact would be pretty stupid, especially when the reputation issue stems from VTT failing to take blame early on when they should have (Remember GC 1.0's? That's just one example). Why should this be handled any differently when they have proven to be less than reliable when the shit hits the fan?

I'd love to be wrong on my hunch that the hub slipped because VTT's solution failed. I WELCOME IT. But it's interesting to see that the other side just wants to forget about years of shoddy customer service and arrogant attitudes because "ThAt'S bIaSeD sPeCuLaTiOn!" Well, isn't it funny that there's so much bias to forget about the relevant context

I said it before and I'll say it again. Speculation here is justified given the history. It's not that hard. If you want to debate why the history doesn't matter in this instance, then please, someone address that point specifically.

 

[fmorelli]

It's funny how you continue to make the statement ad hominen, yet you derive all kinds of conclusions from things that I've said and project them is if I said them. Now I understand the problem and there's really no need to follow this line of conversation because there are three people in it: you, me, and a make believe one.

It's interesting you call my comments nonsense but spend so much time not only addressing them but then further making up arguments that don't exist. Carry on.

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

So any interest in both the splined hub and crank bolt capture for $199? No promises on an actual solid long term solution, but if y’all want to further beta test least you can get you a fair price while doing it.

 

[doodlebro]

It's funny how you continue to make the statement ad hominen, yet you derive all kinds of conclusions from things that I've said and project them is if I said them. Now I understand the problem and there's really no need to follow this line of conversation because there are three people in it: you, me, and a make believe one.

It's interesting you call my comments nonsense but spend so much time not only addressing them but then further making up arguments that don't exist. Carry on.

Filippo

Hey, you're the one who doesn't want to address a simple point when it's spelled out in front of you. You're what, 4 replies deep and you've said nothing to back up the bullshit? It's sad

Vendor reputation means a big deal. Your (and others') incessant need to brush it under the rug and whine about "BiAsEd SpEcUlAtIoN" entirely ignores the point being made. There's no biased speculation in being weary of a vendor that has proven time and time again to be untrustworthy and unprofessional.

Did bringing up the idiotic idea that vendors have no responsibility for how they act and react address my point? Nope.
Did asking if I'm a customer of VTT address my point? Nope.
Did this last reply address my point? Nope.

Again, let me know when you're ready to have an intelligent discussion about how crucially important a vendor's ongoing reputation is to their perception and success in the market. Your points state that a vendor's reputation means absolutely nothing and should not factor into the most recent developing situation, but you have not made any effort to back that up. Go ahead, give it a try. We're all waiting.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I for one did address the only "point" made in the post I quoted, so I don't see how that applies. I also addressed many of the things you're saying to @fmorelli when I was talking to the other person I quoted. You say you've been on the platform for ~3 years, that's still pretty new. I've been a part of it since there was debate on if the JB3, JB4, or COBB were the best tuning options and some people thought there were no HP gains to be had by replacing any part of the intake system - you came along when there were 6 different vendors offering inlet solutions that gave proven 40+whp gains.

Back in the day when there were only two turbo vendors (VTT and RB), every couple months one would have the "more reliable" turbo and it went back and forth like that for years. Yes Tony got defensive. However in the last 4-5years he and all of VTT has not only become much more professional all around, but VTTs products have become better and better.

I for one have never had any unpleasant interactions with ANYONE from VTT, or any of their products. As a matter of fact, I recently emailed Tony about swapping out a product and he did it for free, same day as I emailed, with free next day delivery - before even confirming that I had sent my product in. That's definitely not horrible customer service.

 

[fmorelli]

Hey, you're the one who doesn't want to address a simple point when it's spelled out in front of you.

I don't have to answer your question. I address what I care to address. You don't set my discourse. I do.

You're what, 4 replies deep and you've said nothing to back up the bullshit? It's sad

I can't be responsible for your comprehension.

Vendor reputation means a big deal.

Agree. But I also like salami sandwiches. Neither have anything to do with what I've said.

Your (and others') incessant need to brush it under the rug and whine about "BiAsEd SpEcUlAtIoN" entirely ignores the point being made. There's no biased speculation in being weary of a vendor that has proven time and time again to be untrustworthy and unprofessional.

Straw man ... which has nothing to do with anything I've engaged or addressed.

Did bringing up the idiotic idea that vendors have no responsibility for how they act and react address my point? Nope.

More straw man. I never said vendors have no responsibility. I said all parties have equal responsibility.

Did asking if I'm a customer of VTT address my point? Nope.

You brought up the customer/vendor relationship italicizing customer - I was curious if you were a customer, and this was coming from a customer perspective. Again pretty elementary.

Did this last reply address my point? Nope.

My responses have been about something else, not your point.

Again, let me know when you're ready to have an intelligent discussion about ...

Thus far you've misconstrued my posts, misused words, fabricated straw man arguments, and seem to have a bizarre sense that I'm here to address your questions. Rest assured, many things could happen on this thread but what you're imagining is not probable.

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

So any interest in both the splined hub and crank bolt capture for $199? No promises on an actual solid long term solution, but if y’all want to further beta test least you can get you a fair price while doing it.

Also we could make some changes to the hub splines as well, such as straight cut the splines since the spline lock tool concept (in this application) is a bust anyway. Or could leave it as-is, whatever you guys want. Ideally need 20+ takers. Now is the time to get your hub upgrades you been dreaming about, those that exist but may or may not work, for 75% off.

Rob

 

[doodlebro]

I for one did address the only "point" made in the post I quoted, so I don't see how that applies. I also addressed many of the things you're saying to @fmorelli when I was talking to the other person I quoted. You say you've been on the platform for ~3 years, that's still pretty new. I've been a part of it since there was debate on if the JB3, JB4, or COBB were the best tuning options and some people thought there were no HP gains to be had by replacing any part of the intake system - you came along when there were 6 different vendors offering inlet solutions that gave proven 40+whp gains.

Back in the day when there were only two turbo vendors (VTT and RB), every couple months one would have the "more reliable" turbo and it went back and forth like that for years. Yes Tony got defensive. However in the last 4-5years he and all of VTT has not only become much more professional all around, but VTTs products have become better and better.

I for one have never had any unpleasant interactions with ANYONE from VTT, or any of their products. As a matter of fact, I recently emailed Tony about swapping out a product and he did it for free, same day as I emailed, with free next day delivery - before even confirming that I had sent my product in. That's definitely not horrible customer service.

You're still applying ad-hominem and I truly don't understand why. You don't have to be on this platform for 2 weeks to realize there's something fishy about VTT, and it doesn't take much longer than that to investigate the record as it sits. It's the internet, everything has a date. I've seen recent (last 6-12 months) facebook and forum posts that help to build this opinion, (on top of issues like GC V1.0s) and I'm not sure why you're so intent on putting words in my mouth. I have never mentioned RB and VTT's issues and they have nothing to do with the opinion that VTT is unprofessional when it comes to interacting with their customers.

I don't have to answer your question. I address what I care to address. You don't set my discourse. I do.

I can't be responsible for your comprehension.

Agree. But I also like salami sandwiches. Neither have anything to do with what I've said.

Straw man ... which has nothing to do with anything I've engaged or addressed.

Begs the question, why did you keep responding?

More straw man. I never said vendors have no responsibility. I said all parties have equal responsibility.

You brought up the customer/vendor relationship italicizing customer - I was curious if you were a customer, and this was coming from a customer perspective. Again pretty elementary.

My responses have been about something else, not your point.

Thus far you've misconstrued my posts, misused words, fabricated straw man arguments, and seem to have a bizarre sense that I'm here to address your questions. Rest assured, many things could happen on this thread but what you're imagining is not probable.

Filippo

You could have participated in a discussion about the importance of vendor reputation, but instead you got nowhere.

My points are clear and everyone's need to call "SpEcUlAtIoN" doesn't address them, it just makes the point stronger. Further, it's hilarious that you're calling fallacies on me. The initial fallacies started with ad-hominem and false dichotomies, both directed at me, for noting that "Maybe we should be weary of VTT's products given the issues that have cropped up and the general lack of professionalism." Nobody who has spoken against me personally (panzerfaust, fmorelli) wants to address this simple point. If you're not addressing my point, then why are you responding directly to me?

Can anyone explain to me how context and reputation doesn't matter in this case (crank hub failure)?

I'm still all ears, 5 nonsense replies later.

And I'll paste it here once more:
I'd love to be wrong on my hunch that the hub slipped because VTT's solution failed. I WELCOME IT. But it's interesting to see that the other side wants to forget about years of shoddy customer service and arrogant attitudes because "ThAt'S bIaSeD sPeCuLaTiOn!" Well, isn't it funny that there's so much bias to forget about the relevant context

 

[veer90]

Also we could make some changes to the hub splines as well, such as straight cut the splines since the spline lock tool concept (in this application) is a bust anyway. Or could leave it as-is, whatever you guys want. Ideally need 20+ takers. Now is the time to get your hub upgrades you been dreaming about, those that exist but may or may not work, for 75% off.

Rob

Really Rob. Stick to what you're good at, making turbos of a 7+ year old design.

 

[veer90]

Back on topic, I've seen pictures from Ghassan but I'm not sure he's posted publicly so I'll refrain from saying anything specific. But it does not look good for the spline lock.