VTT / Precision Raceworks Coil install / Results thread
- Thread starter Tony@VargasTurboTech
- Start date
Very impressive, Tony!
Am I correct to presume we'll also see HP/TQ gains with 93 octane on FBO/stock turbo cars?
Am I correct to presume we'll also see HP/TQ gains with 93 octane on FBO/stock turbo cars?
The gains Tony saw won't necessarily be seen by everyone. He saw such huge gains because his oem coils were having a very hard time with the level of power he was making.
To put it another way, the gains in hp and tq people see will be directly related to how close to the limits they were pushing the car's stock ignition system. The harder the oem system is pushed, the bigger the difference this system will make. That is, of course, on the same tune.
Agreed!
At the very least, with the new ignition systems I think we should be able to increase spark gap for any tune originally dialed in with the OEM ignition. Accordingly, and in view of Tony's results, it's not unreasonable to expect to see HP/TQ gains using a more powerful ignition for any type of fueling.
But what about ignition timing? Can we also advance timing with the new ignitions? My answer would be, "Probably not", since knocking arises from compression-ignition, and not spark ignition. But, as stated earlier, the new ignition systems will help to avoid misfires.
Would be interesting to see stock coils running without multispark to see if any gains are made there or if it is all with the coils.
I saw on the other forum people asking questions about boost etc. Yes these power gains are due a couple things. More boost being made, quicker, and boost being increased. This power is not just from added spark, but that is the benefits of the coils. With stock coils the turbos were slower to spool consistently, and made less boost in that area, so the hotter spark is spooling the turbos quicker, and in turn making more boost in that area, bringing the power up.
We will only be answering questions on these results on this forum, in this thread. The other forum owner decided its ok to steal content from other forums he bashes, and post that content without our permission. Seriously ridiculous
We will only be answering questions on these results on this forum, in this thread. The other forum owner decided its ok to steal content from other forums he bashes, and post that content without our permission. Seriously ridiculous
Ok I came on over from the other forum because i guess this is where we are discussing this.
I was skeptical of the gains provided by the coil upgrade. I have done a bunch of dyno testing of distributor based to cop conversions, different cop setups, mag44, ect and not once have i seen gains like that especally in the low rpm and load ranges, like 1-3k rpm, The stock n54 coils are not that bad especially at that low of rpm, maybe at high rpm/high load but not low rpm low load. The only time i see any gains is where the car is suffering from spark blowout or just not enough spark energy for cylinder pressure and even then the gains are pretty small.
In your first post you say "hardware only test" "nothing changed" "data was quantified" but then there was no boost readout posted with the graph...thats what made me really question it. We all know that you cant make any assumptions that a FI car is truly making more power unless the boost is near the exact same on a pet run basis, otherwise the data is skewed.
As i looked at the graph i noticed that up top its near the same which if you are turbine limited with the turbos and you cant make anymore boost thats what i would expect the graph to look like, you can bring it in faster but you cant make more once you get to that point or you can brake boost it on the dyno and generate similar results. Point is more boost, more power.
But nevertheless you told us that the runs are the same as far as boost and timing.
Ok now im confused, the car is making more boost than on the stock run, so if the runs are the exact same and the data was quantified but its making more boost so therefor more power, how do you know its the coils that caused that, a .04 increase in plug gap helped the car make 50 more hp at 1.5-2k rpms? BTW ive done some plug gap testing with all kinds of different fuel on cars from na hondas to 3000hp alcohol bae hemis. most the time it improves idle and low speed DRIVE ABILITY not power, Only instances that helped with power was in alcohol fueled cars but you need some IGN1A's or a mag44 to see any improvements but thats just because you can run a richer mixture and get the afr into the 3.2-3.3 range, gasoline, ethanol and other race fuels wont see this increase.
It may seem like im trying to bash you or the coils and im not, Any ignition system upgrade is a good choice, the car will probably preform better, but to make claims like that is overstepping. People work hard for their money, they expect good results out of products they by, they trust you as a business owner and vendor to provide them with data they can interpret and make a purchase based on that, tell them " if you have spark blowout, this is what you want" 'if you are tired of changing coils, this is what you want" "if you want some bling when you open the hood, this is what you want" "if you have $500 to spend and you have no idea what to buy next, this is what you want"
But don't skew the data to make these into something they are not.
And if you think reposting a dyno graph and your findings is stealing content and "ridiculous" then you should probably keep ann of your intellectual data that you would like to keep private off the internet, FB...pretty much anything digital.
It would seem you are here to possibly hate, or be negative. Yes bummerboost disallows the use of the word SpoolStreet anywhere in any post. We posted the results here, and not there on purpose, that the owner of another forum that blocks this forum, wants to come copy, and paste things when it suits him to me is ridiculous in my opinion yes. Do I think its intellectual property? God no, why would I think that, I was actually going to post it on BB this am, but once I saw Joe had already come here, taken it, and posted it, I changed my mind.
As for the results, they speak for themselves, you do not want to believe them, than don't honestly I do not care. I have no affiliation with PR, I paid for both the kits we have, I got nothing free, and to honest. I did not believe the results myself. I had to dyno back to back 4-5 times with the curves tracing each other to believe them. My first post is dead clear, SAME tune, I simply checked the box that is in MHD for the PR coils. I am not here to sell PR coils, we post results as we always do, good, bad or otherwise.
You have a great day!
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At that low of an RPM, wouldn't the WGDC be at 100% anyways, thus any added boost is from the ignition improvements and not the "tune"?
Also, I would see no issue in the cross posting of information from one forum to another, except that in this instance - the proprietor of the forum is the one that did it. That's an obvious attempt to drive eyeballs to the site. Eyeballs = $$, so it was a pure money grab.
Also, I would see no issue in the cross posting of information from one forum to another, except that in this instance - the proprietor of the forum is the one that did it. That's an obvious attempt to drive eyeballs to the site. Eyeballs = $$, so it was a pure money grab.
Not sure how we went from reporting back to back data run results to intentionally skewing data. Tony you bastard. 
Yeah its a good thing we are promoting a product we sell, and profit on from these results, we are going to make a fortune.... Oh wait, we buy these just like anyone else... You know what they say, you can please some of the people some of the time....Not sure how we went from reporting back to back data run results to intentionally skewing data. Tony you bastard.
Thanks for the support Tony. We don't block links to other sites here, but I see why the other forums do. It seems we are growing faster every month, they are scared I guess. We haven't had a single, non growth month since we opened the doors here.
Why am I not surprised by BB actions Can't wait to get a set of these coils myself, good job VTT on testing these bad boys.
Can't wait to get a set of these coils myself, good job VTT on testing these bad boys.Tony,
Just to clarify, I'm not discrediting the quality of the kit, the manufacturer or ability to produce more spark energy or duration compared to the factory coils.
What I am discrediting is how the test was preformed, how you interpreted the data and how you presented your findings.
I believe it was handled poorly and products should be represented truthfully regardless of who the manufacturer is or who is doing the testing.
Just to clarify, I'm not discrediting the quality of the kit, the manufacturer or ability to produce more spark energy or duration compared to the factory coils.
What I am discrediting is how the test was preformed, how you interpreted the data and how you presented your findings.
I believe it was handled poorly and products should be represented truthfully regardless of who the manufacturer is or who is doing the testing.
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Everyone can have an opinion, so thank you for expressing yours in a calm tone.
As for me, I've not looked into the results much, but I honestly believe that Tony didn't really care enough to get into the nitty gritty on a tuning level as to why more power was produced. Installed it, got positive results, the end. You can make more boost without changing the tune, so long as it was never hitting target.
Most people have an agenda, so its easy to see that as the most logical explanation. But maybe our direct injection gives us more problems with complete combustion than we've given credit. Particularly on ethanol.
This makes so much sense. Better spark --> more complete and faster combustion --> more exhaust pressure --> faster spool.
Rinse and repeat.
We have no issues with questions. The community has to understand, however, that our goal is to make a lot of power, not do a double blind test on coils as prescribed from someone's armchair across the country. Run a tune, swap coils, check the box in MHD, run it on the dyno again, be surprised, put the original coils back on, uncheck the box in MHD, run it on the dyno, lose power, reinstall coils... etc. Report results.
The problem is someone coming in with the idea that "we should have" coupled with "intentional skewing data". No. Go away, or better yet, do your own testing. We're not skewing anything. If the coils caused a more complete burn and we got a little more flow out of the turbos... ok. I don't care if the coils caused Santa Clause to come down and bless the turbos with his meat stick. Back and forth... they caused a difference. We like it.
Can't say it'll happen like this on an ACN91 tune with 3 old sparkplugs and one -12 injector mismatched with four-9's and one -1 hanging on for dear life. If that hurts your feelings, we apologize for our shortcomings in general. If anyone is jumping to conclusions it's the person assuming we were skewing things.
And yes, before anyone gets their knickers tied up, I know all about root cause analysis -there is a time and place for it. It just doesn't matter in this case (for us). Take the info for what it is, and good luck (no sarcasm) as you apply it to your own endeavors.
Chris
The problem is someone coming in with the idea that "we should have" coupled with "intentional skewing data". No. Go away, or better yet, do your own testing. We're not skewing anything. If the coils caused a more complete burn and we got a little more flow out of the turbos... ok. I don't care if the coils caused Santa Clause to come down and bless the turbos with his meat stick. Back and forth... they caused a difference. We like it.
Can't say it'll happen like this on an ACN91 tune with 3 old sparkplugs and one -12 injector mismatched with four-9's and one -1 hanging on for dear life. If that hurts your feelings, we apologize for our shortcomings in general. If anyone is jumping to conclusions it's the person assuming we were skewing things.
And yes, before anyone gets their knickers tied up, I know all about root cause analysis -there is a time and place for it. It just doesn't matter in this case (for us). Take the info for what it is, and good luck (no sarcasm) as you apply it to your own endeavors.
Chris
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