Vader Solutions N54 Breather System

[Rob@RBTurbo]

@Rob@RBTurbo your expertise in the N54 platform in and outs are something I respect and appreciate. And I am a repeat customer because of that, and expect to continue in that regard. On the other hand, I professionally ran forums for a very long time, it is my expertise and I'm rather certain that you are unable to appreciate that. I will explain once, that your perspective is incorrect. Our forums suffer because people show up and throw up, shooting down people and products without communicating any due diligence. That behavior should be blunted. Have a problem, say it. Need help, say it. Did your due diligence, say it. Showing up and throwing up is not something I encourage people to do. You're clearly incapable of understanding the distinction - that's ok, it's why other people are around with skills and knowledge you don't possess.

To your commentary on the product, while the knowledge you share is valuable, your inability to understand your one-sided mannerism toward other vendors is unique to you. Everyone else sees it. You have no issue with someone trashing ANY other vendor that competes with you (and who knows, maybe even the ones that don't). So honestly while I read your technical commentary with great interest, you are quite incompetent in the other dimensions of interaction, so given my expertise I put almost zero credence to the places you are experientially tone deaf. You won't like this post, but I suspect your ego makes you incapable of understanding what you've been told, much less digesting it.

Filippo

Filippo,

This kind of reminds us of the retort you had about the MMP outlets. "Nah, prove it, couldn't be, must be an install issue as that is what the Vendor has stated"- after we jumped on that thread. Wouldn't you know a month or so later you suffered the same fate.

Sometimes as a vendor you get an inside scoop on things, we get A LOT of calls and emails all of the time and often know things a year or more prior to you or most anyone else. We often do not care until it becomes an annoyance and then we wonder why the hell no one else seems to know about it and why are we still hearing about it? (Note the post we made over 2 months ago, was well burnt out at the point). Well the reason is because no one talks about it, they usually want to sell off the products and then move on rather than being stuck with a product that has zero value due to their own forthcomingness. Sure we get calls and issues of our own as well, and we address them asap. If we feel a product is bogus, we'd pull it as quick as possible. However, not all vendors give you as the consumer that respect... until something like this happens and then all of the sudden more work and/or thought will be put into the product and it becomes "Breather Kit 2.0".

Think as you will but there tons of things you do not know about the interworkings of this platform. Which products you may feel is respected, many of times, really shouldn't be as much as you'd like to think. Likewise not all products are today what they were yesterday either, it is ok to improve and this could be an opportunity.

Your expectation of every customer to spend 3 months studying why their products are bum, so that can appeal to the Filippo's of the world- is quite the demand IMO. This customer (like many others) put on a product, had issues, reversed the product install- issues went away. It is reasonable to allow this to be known, IMO.

In conclusion you can call us one sided, call us ego riddled, call us tone deaf, call us unprofessional; but as usual you and many others can thank us later down the road for being all of the above.

Have a good day.

Rob

 

[fmorelli]

As usual @Rob@RBTurbo you are tone deaf. I agree with 90% of your last post ... why ... because you are addressing things that are in YOUR wheelhouse of expertise. I didn't say there wasn't a product problem. I didn't state "3 months" of research is needed - you may be the only village idiot that figures out that hyperbole is an intellectually bankrupt way to project and argue with yourself. You didn't understand my objections, nor will you. Because it would require you to understand something that you've clearly demonstrated your incapable of. Thank God, on the other hand, that you understand the platform - for that, at least, we get good products from you. Something to be said for that. On the rest ... I wish you luck.

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

As usual @Rob@RBTurbo you are tone deaf. I agree with 90% of your last post ... why ... because you are addressing things that are in YOUR wheelhouse of expertise. I didn't say there wasn't a product problem. I didn't state "3 months" of research is needed - you may be the only village idiot that figures out that hyperbole is an intellectually bankrupt way to project and argue with yourself. You didn't understand my objections, nor will you. Because it would require you to understand something that you've clearly demonstrated your incapable of. Thank God, on the other hand, that you understand the platform - for that, at least, we get good products from you. Something to be said for that. On the rest ... I wish you luck.

Filippo

This is a fair reply and we get it- you wanted more and perhaps his account could've had more information presented (what the vendor said, repeat checks on the install, etc) and been a bit less brash.

However you chime in with a fairly extreme presumption that he has done nothing, made no contact with the vendor, asked no questions, polled other users, done no other due diligence, etc. As such your reply was also quite abrasive (ie. "this post just pisses me off, you posted jack shit, are you 14?!") just the same if not worse than the the report. This is not really conducive to getting to the bottom of anything and is quite "the show up and throw up" response to someone who could have been through hell and back over the past many months.

Don't get us wrong having your perspective IS a lot of time warranted, especially in this community where so many get things twisted when it very could truly be on them. But based on this particular product and the simple "by chance contact" we have had dropped on us over the past many months, we can assure you it is not an uncommon complaint (which we understand that you understand could be the case).

Rob

 

[09beemer05]

Have you attempted to communicate with Omar? Are you aware of anyone having figured out what the issue may be? I understand you are not a professional - but to your point if you are 100% certain you installed correctly, I suspect you have the chops to at least take a look at what is there and maybe see something may not be right? I would understand a post like yours if it came with some demonstration of having looked into what is wrong and having spoken with the vendor (or at least tried to). It's not that we are the R&D department - but we need to allow for the opportunity of maybe we made a mistake, maybe something has a QC problem, and maybe the vendor can sort it out - before we dump on the forum. When the dump is warranted, I get that. But shoot first ask questions later or never ... :-(

Glad to hear your car is at least running well stock.

Filippo

I have done research and as stated noone really talks about there experience with it. I'm not aware of anyone finding a solution to this problem. They instead just choose to sell it and not inform the next buyer of the reason for doing so. I have defenitely done my due diligence in this. I have owned my car for 10 years and know the ins and out of it and have always done mods. My car is far from stock. The wife's car is stock lol.I also tried replacing my valve cover and gasket to no avail. I ran logs with MHD and nothing really out of the ordinary was noticed. The car would then reach operating temp and the smoking would subside. Also my low end torque was just horrible. When I removed it the car felt as it should. I have pictures and video of when it would smoke. The shop that I take my car to also checked it out and could not find anything as to why it was smoking with the kit. But one thing is for sure. It stopped when it was removed. As stated I know of other users with the same issue but are reluctant to speak about it. They just want to get the product out of their hands. I completely understand where you are getting at in regards to the way I posted. I agree I could have bin a little more...subtle? But out of frustration, as I'm sure many of us have done we write what we feel. But hopefully Omar can chime in on this? Because there is defenitely something going on here.

 

[langsbr]

If you took logs from MHD, you should easily be able to deduce why your low end torque was horrible. Surprising as it may be, you will not have a clean, proper log with a mysterious lack of power. There's no special "I used a Vader Solutions part so run like crap" button on the DME.

Personally, I do not consider the, "I installed part x, car ran like crap, I removed it, car ran fine, so part x is the issue." That's not always the case, and I'd even say most times. But as you said, it's easier to dump the part instead of trying to learn anything or determine what the root cause is. Why put forth any effort? You already have your confirmation bias from another vendor that LOVES to trash on any competitor.

 

[Kommodore]

I have a few hundred miles on this setup and so far everything is fine. The only issue now is oil smell in the cabin from time to time. So, I am considering what direction to go in for routing the oil vapors elsewhere.

 

[fmorelli]

I have a few hundred miles on this setup and so far everything is fine. The only issue now is oil smell in the cabin from time to time. So, I am considering what direction to go in for routing the oil vapors elsewhere.

This is why I went with Rob's low side setup. I've heard vent to atmosphere can have some undesirable side-effects. I'll just be happy if I don't have to walnut blast this car every 30k miles. I'd rather not smell it, though ...

Filippo

 

[chadillac2000]

This is why I went with Rob's low side setup. I've heard vent to atmosphere can have some undesirable side-effects. I'll just be happy if I don't have to walnut blast this car every 30k miles. I'd rather not smell it, though ...

Filippo

You'll still have to walnut blast even with that low side setup FYI. I cleaned my valves and installed the RB PCV at the same time, and 25,000 later when I removed my intake manifold, caked up again. I'm back to only running a high side OCC at this point.

 

[langsbr]

I have a few hundred miles on this setup and so far everything is fine. The only issue now is oil smell in the cabin from time to time. So, I am considering what direction to go in for routing the oil vapors elsewhere.

Reinstall your cowl and use a good charcoal filter. I did and I don't have any oil smell with VTA now.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

You'll still have to walnut blast even with that low side setup FYI. I cleaned my valves and installed the RB PCV at the same time, and 25,000 later when I removed my intake manifold, caked up again. I'm back to only running a high side OCC at this point.

It’s been a while so keep me honest here, but weren’t the vast majority of those miles done with your OEM turbos leaking like a sieve?

Not to say there’s any silver bullet for clean N54 valves indefinitely, but we have certainly heard great feedback about intake port walnut blast interval extensions.

 

[Kommodore]

I had the RB low side, and it ended up leaking and messing with my fuel trims. Right now I am definitely seeing the car running better, no smoking or anything. But the smell is definitely annoying. With the RB low side and the head NOT tapped I was observing build-up similar to what the N55 goes through from the N55's that I've worked on. I did plug the ports this time around and am going to do another blasting to observe the buildup rate again. It's possible there will always be an issue with reversion that will never allow us to completely eliminate it. But, imo, you would definitely fall into the every 30K or more category for blasting schedule.

This is why I went with Rob's low side setup. I've heard vent to atmosphere can have some undesirable side-effects. I'll just be happy if I don't have to walnut blast this car every 30k miles. I'd rather not smell it, though ...

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

I had the RB low side, and it ended up leaking and messing with my fuel trims. Right now I am definitely seeing the car running better, no smoking or anything. But the smell is definitely annoying. With the RB low side and the head NOT tapped I was observing build-up similar to what the N55 goes through from the N55's that I've worked on. I did plug the ports this time around and am going to do another blasting to observe the buildup rate again. It's possible there will always be an issue with reversion that will never allow us to completely eliminate it. But, imo, you would definitely fall into the every 30K or more category for blasting schedule.

Do not recall you (or anyone) reporting this. What was the "it" that was leaking?

The reason we highly recommend plugging the head ports (only possible if you go VTA or External PCV) is that if you do not you are still leaving a vulnerability for leaks at the valve cover gasket and/or clogs in the valve cover itself. Some do not want to, that is ok it is not required, but problems in those areas have nothing to do with the PCV inability to function correctly... but at the same time that doesn't mean the potential for issues due to degradation in those areas doesn't still exist.

Rob

 

[09beemer05]

If you took logs from MHD, you should easily be able to deduce why your low end torque was horrible. Surprising as it may be, you will not have a clean, proper log with a mysterious lack of power. There's no special "I used a Vader Solutions part so run like crap" button on the DME.

Personally, I do not consider the, "I installed part x, car ran like crap, I removed it, car ran fine, so part x is the issue." That's not always the case, and I'd even say most times. But as you said, it's easier to dump the part instead of trying to learn anything or determine what the root cause is. Why put forth any effort? You already have your confirmation bias from another vendor that LOVES to trash on any competitor.

You have the wrong idea. I'm going off of what I learned by most defenitely putting effort. As I said I went as far as to replace the valve cover and gasket. You say you will not accept what I said but how else are we going to learn about these products? Its bin done all the time! Like i said breather kit on it smoked like a locomotive and loss of tourque, breather kit off car is running just fine! That's what it is! And I will say it again. I am not the only one having these issues. And ofcourse I'm going to remove the kit, why would I leave it on my car when it was causing these issues???? Let me just leave it and figure out what else can be causing it and in the process maybe really hurt something? I'm also glad that some people are not having issues. But unfortunately this wasnt the case for me.

 

[fmorelli]

You'll still have to walnut blast even with that low side setup FYI. I cleaned my valves and installed the RB PCV at the same time, and 25,000 later when I removed my intake manifold, caked up again. I'm back to only running a high side OCC at this point.

Thanks for the feedback. So I also have the BMS high side OCC. RB low-side external PCV with Mishimoto style can. I've yet to do the low-side install, but intend to plug ports, walnut blast at the same time.

Curious ... if running both external setups, plugged head ports ... then what causes the oil deposits?

Filippo

 

[Jeffman]

Curious ... if running both external setups, plugged head ports ... then what causes the oil deposits?

Filippo

Great question. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[langsbr]

You have the wrong idea. I'm going off of what I learned by most defenitely putting effort. As I said I went as far as to replace the valve cover and gasket. You say you will not accept what I said but how else are we going to learn about these products? Its bin done all the time! Like i said breather kit on it smoked like a locomotive and loss of tourque, breather kit off car is running just fine! That's what it is! And I will say it again. I am not the only one having these issues. And ofcourse I'm going to remove the kit, why would I leave it on my car when it was causing these issues???? Let me just leave it and figure out what else can be causing it and in the process maybe really hurt something? I'm also glad that some people are not having issues. But unfortunately this wasnt the case for me.

You're missing the point. You didn't learn anything regarding what was happening with your car other than symptoms. Not the root of those symptoms. If you can read a log, you should be able to say why you lost low end torque. It's simply not possible for all variables to stay the same and the output be different. For some reason people think EFI is "magic" and they do "crazy things". They only do "crazy things" when you don't understand GIGO. It's a computer.

Based on your experiences, the only conclusion one can come to is "your breather is defective and causes a loss of low end torque with way to quantify 'where' the loss is coming from." I don't think it's the part that is defective here...

 

[frontside0815]

You'll still have to walnut blast even with that low side setup FYI. I cleaned my valves and installed the RB PCV at the same time, and 25,000 later when I removed my intake manifold, caked up again. I'm back to only running a high side OCC at this point.

Mhhh....
This is really odd. All i know is that since running VTA (one hose just down from the PCV without flapper or anything) i have no oil at all in my CP but my valve Train Looks a bit more dirty.
Thats why i will go RB Low Side and VTA high side with Flapper in between.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Thanks for the feedback. So I also have the BMS high side OCC. RB low-side external PCV with Mishimoto style can. I've yet to do the low-side install, but intend to plug ports, walnut blast at the same time.

Curious ... if running both external setups, plugged head ports ... then what causes the oil deposits?

Filippo

If your turbos are directly puking oil (such as what we recall to be the case of the feedback in question) there really is no way to intercept it, aside for whatever is collected in the Intercooler. So this is a certain probability for an otherwise healthy engine that is well maintained with both OCC's in place.

Another sub reason could be unplugged head ports allowing leakages in the Valve cover gasket (or cracked valve cover) to pull oil from the crankcase directly into the valves. One of the large reasons we highly recommend plugging these head ports asap to remove these vulnerabilities.

Another sub reason is that if the crankcase is pushing oil out the vent port some %age should be caught by the high side oil catch can (if equipped), but even if equipped not all of it will ever be caught and still maintain high flow through an high side OCC. Ultimately this will go back through the entire induction tract, but there are good trade offs for it.

Another sub reason is that whatever is pulled through the PCV valve itself may not be caught, especially if not using a finely filtrated OCC. If using the recommended Mishimoto OCC all contaminants that are trying to find their way into the intake via this pathway will certainly be caught.

If there is perfection in all of the above all other oil deposits would be just the nature of the Internal Combustion engine over many miles and time, they are not really known to be the cleanest of devices so it is not unreasonable to expect that there will be buildup eventually. Even healthy port injected engines, with their fuel cleaning assist, still can goober up valves with time. The entire premise of running OCC's is not to keep valves looking new forever as it is not realistic, the idea is only to extend the maintenance interval for the Intake valve cleaning to more reasonable levels. For those who do not feel like dealing with OCC's, etc; we do understand and for them we just suggest keeping everything as healthy as possible and to accept that walnut blasting will be a more routine thing for them.

Rob

 

[chadillac2000]

It’s been a while so keep me honest here, but weren’t the vast majority of those miles done with your OEM turbos leaking like a sieve? Not to say there’s any silver bullet for clean N54 valves indefinitely, but we have certainly heard great feedback about intake port walnut blast interval extensions.

Not the majority, but yes for some of them my rear OEM turbo was pushing oil through the center cartridge. And I did not have my head plugged. I'm sure the former attributed to adding some extra oil to my intake tract. It sure added smoke out the exhaust.

The entire premise of running any OCC's is not to keep valves looking new forever as that is not realistic, the idea is only to extend the maintenance interval for the Intake valve cleaning to more reasonable levels. For those who do not feel like dealing with OCC's, etc; we do understand and for them we just suggest to accept that walnut blasting will be a more routine thing for them.

This. We've already had this discussion a few times on a few posts, and I understand your position considering the business you're in, but I wish this was more widely known. I think the majority of people that invest in this setup expect to not have to walnut blast going forward, and that is pretty far from the truth, even on a 100% healthy engine and turbo setup that's not pushing oil.

The complete low side setup is not cheap, especially for something that only pushes back the need for a blasting a few thousand miles.

Personally, I ended up ditching the low side OCC, bought the supplies to be able to walnut blast whenever I want, and haven't looked back. The smoking was resolved when I ditched my leaky OEM twin turbos for a new single, and now there's no need for emptying catch cans multiple times a week in the winter, and no more worrying about where to mount/how to mount the damn can.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

This. We've already had this discussion a few times on a few posts, and I understand your position considering the business you're in, but I wish this was more widely known. I think the majority of people that invest in this setup expect to not have to walnut blast going forward, and that is pretty far from the truth, even on a 100% healthy engine and turbo setup that's not pushing oil.

The complete low side setup is not cheap, especially for something that only pushes back the need for a blasting a few thousand miles.

We are not in the OCC business, and do not care if anyone runs one or not. Our business is actually turbos, and FWIW we have never even sold a single OCC to anyone. For that matter we don't even run an OCC (either high or low) on our own N54 as we do not drive it much anyway and are perfectly fine walnut blasting every 30k miles anyway, but we still have the External PCV installed as it is superior in several ways. Regarding OCC's ultimately if stuff is being caught, there is no doubt that same stuff would find its way to further gunk up the valves if were not in place. This should go without saying but also we have been extremely clear to not expect valve cleanliness perfection regardless, for literally years now. It is not and has never been a marketing campaign of ours in any way shape or form, aside that we expect intervals will increase with fair margin.

As for cost our External kits they can be had for as low as $100, that is pretty cheap considering the perks involved. Worried about not having the head ports plugged? You can then plug them and still retain PCV functionality. Have a broken Screw-on cap? Not a big deal as it is NOT needed anymore. Need a replacement PCV valve down the road? Go up to Toyota and get one. Also as stated the low side OCC is not required, but you can add it if you wish. Lots of advantages with the External Setup in the right hands, and very cheap in base form.

All of that said your experience is not inline with many others, and there are some great reasons why that could be as now has been clarified (non plugged head ports, bad turbos, etc). Meanwhile we have had many claim 50+k miles and still looking great or much better than the "last checks prior" types of feedback.

Considering the product has "only" been used since later 2015 by a "fairly" limited audience it is going to hard to get many with that many higher mileage for feedback... and as they do ideally they have addressed the other weaknesses as well alongside having healthy engines and turbos employed in order to provide the most accurate accounts.

Much more reading can be done on the External PCV stuff here, including feedback from others about their valves and even some repeat discussions with the example above:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35535

Rob