Unrelated but related as well. Good read regardless. https://www.facebook.com/groups/397625187070712/permalink/2333013426865202/
Tig welding 4047 on block
- Thread starter shushikiary
- Start date
@GhassanAutomotive is a Platinum Vendor on this forum, whatever that means. They have a forum presence. Strange they have not replied.
If anyone wants to contact them: email [email protected] and you can call or text at 405-780-0142.
Oh, well more fun news.
Machine shop looked at the stripped stud hole and is not sure they can fix it. The holes already had helicoils in them so they are not sure they can use a time sert or not, and don't want to use a big sert as they think the walls might get too thin.
So if the machine shop cannot fix the stud hole then I'll have to replace the block as well.
I really hope anyone thinking of getting a Ghassan motor sees this thread.
Machine shop looked at the stripped stud hole and is not sure they can fix it. The holes already had helicoils in them so they are not sure they can use a time sert or not, and don't want to use a big sert as they think the walls might get too thin.
So if the machine shop cannot fix the stud hole then I'll have to replace the block as well.
I really hope anyone thinking of getting a Ghassan motor sees this thread.
Very true...although the oil squirters really come into play in only in circuit racing applications, where the engine sees repeat boost, corner after corner. Drag racing, piston just gets heated once, although it maybe a big hit if your 1000+ hp. Was considering Ghassan for a bottom end build, but to hell with that after seeing this nonsense. Feel bad for the OP, that block is fubar'd.
My .02, I would move heaven and earth to keep oil squirters if I had them, or add them if they were an easy retrofit. I Recently went through the bother of CNCing a set of LSA/LS9 stroker pistons that did not/would not clear the stock squirters just so we wouldn't have to delete them. N63tus run 2 squirters per piston, and some S63 variants even run 3, which is nuts. Goes to show you how important BMW thought piston cooling was @ the 18psi level...
@GhassanAutomotive
@fmorelli Why can't I tag Ghassan? It shows they are a Platinum Vendor but I can't @ them? Granted they have not logged on since 2021 and I am sure would claim they did nothing wrong
@fmorelli Why can't I tag Ghassan? It shows they are a Platinum Vendor but I can't @ them? Granted they have not logged on since 2021 and I am sure would claim they did nothing wrong
I had the G1000 package done back in early 2022. I haven't had anything super obvious go south on me, but on the flipside, during initial discussions they said they'd be providing regular updates with lots of pictures and such. Over the course of the build they never provided pictures unless I reached out to ask for them, and even then, all I saw was the pistons and rods, and then the bottom end which was sleeved and closed. That said, I really don't know that those components are actually in my engine. Nor do I really know the quality of the worksmanship, which I'm not confident in. It really makes me want to take it apart just to see what kind of hidden minefields I'm dealing with. I went with them because they are relatively close to where I live and around the same time as I was looking the other option was ABR in Houston and I'd recently read bad press on them. Seemed like the only other outfits were in Cali... I guess time will tell.
From looking/talking around it seems if you are lucky and get a good block with Ghassan you might get something that actually works, but if you're unlucky and get a shitty block (like I did) you're hosed. So it's a combination of poor quality control and using blocks that should not be used as they are in too bad of shape.
I went with Ghassan for the same reasons you posted. Now I know that there are options near me, Billiam on the easy coast, then Billy Orton with Colorado N5x I know for making decent stuff, and the place I'm having build this motor now is Octane Enterprises (which I'll update with how things go once I get their motor in).
It seems no matter what you do or where you go, someone has bad press. There's no winning it feels like, you just have to try one and test your luck. There's enough bad press about Ghassan now though that I think they have the most bad press out of anyone.
Right now, my new block is scheduled to come back from CSS this week, and we'll see when assembly is done and I can pick it up. Maybe I'll have it ready for break-in by March if I'm lucky.
I went with Ghassan for the same reasons you posted. Now I know that there are options near me, Billiam on the easy coast, then Billy Orton with Colorado N5x I know for making decent stuff, and the place I'm having build this motor now is Octane Enterprises (which I'll update with how things go once I get their motor in).
It seems no matter what you do or where you go, someone has bad press. There's no winning it feels like, you just have to try one and test your luck. There's enough bad press about Ghassan now though that I think they have the most bad press out of anyone.
Right now, my new block is scheduled to come back from CSS this week, and we'll see when assembly is done and I can pick it up. Maybe I'll have it ready for break-in by March if I'm lucky.
Well I have the motor back now from Octane enterprises, so I'll get it together and then in the car and we'll see how things go.
I got another picture of the closed deck on the old block... guess what... it's not a CSS like Ghassan said it was, and it's not proper fitment...
Anyways.. hopefully things will go well now... time will tell.
I got another picture of the closed deck on the old block... guess what... it's not a CSS like Ghassan said it was, and it's not proper fitment...
Anyways.. hopefully things will go well now... time will tell.
Attachments
![20230317_173315[1].jpg](/data/attachments/79/79146-2c89de408571d4439496d08b570af478.jpg)
Wow…. Is that how the surface finish looked after pulling the head? Looks like it was resurfaced with a wire brush on a drill. Sad sad…
The head was removed quite a while ago, so I don't know if there was cleanup done after the head was pulled or not, so I can't speak to the finish.
What is really telling though is the gaps between the block and the closed deck. You can see at least 3 gaps in the picture that should not be there. 2 at peaks in-between cylinders and then some others on the left hand side.
CSS closed decks also have a CSS stamp on them, so this is FOR SURE not a CSS closed deck like I was told it was when I got the motor.
New block from Octane Enterprises looks clean though, much better shape than the one I got from ghassan. Talking with the motor builder (Ben at Octane) he was saying when they did tear down he also found that they had not properly inserted the chain on the chain guide and it was wearing through the guide.... so another failure that was waiting to happen.
Octane has a complete sheet of all the parts and work they did so it's all documented, which makes me feel better. I know they also got the right head studs from Billiam. So like I said, I'll get it back in the car, do break in, and then see what happens.
What is really telling though is the gaps between the block and the closed deck. You can see at least 3 gaps in the picture that should not be there. 2 at peaks in-between cylinders and then some others on the left hand side.
CSS closed decks also have a CSS stamp on them, so this is FOR SURE not a CSS closed deck like I was told it was when I got the motor.
New block from Octane Enterprises looks clean though, much better shape than the one I got from ghassan. Talking with the motor builder (Ben at Octane) he was saying when they did tear down he also found that they had not properly inserted the chain on the chain guide and it was wearing through the guide.... so another failure that was waiting to happen.
Octane has a complete sheet of all the parts and work they did so it's all documented, which makes me feel better. I know they also got the right head studs from Billiam. So like I said, I'll get it back in the car, do break in, and then see what happens.
So.... update....
SHE LIVES!
New motor is in break in now, I did initial break in and first oil change on jack stands, now it's 500 miles of low load (first oil change and this current one on BR30 break in oil). I'll give specifics on what I'm doing for break in (and why) in a moment.
Motor went in well, ZERO leaks so far. I switched to the billet valve cover from VTT, which is working nicely (much better than the cast one!), and the head is not leaking coolant now (because it's properly torqued!). I've currently got about 20 miles on the motor with 3 heat cycles. This motor is much quieter to listen to, the ghassan motor had a very strange cam sound to it, which likely explains the scored rocker wheels. That sound is now completely gone. I made sure to extra lube the rocker wheels with high pressure assembly grease using a syringe before putting the valve cover on as well.
In fact, this motor is not only quiet on the ears, it's electrically quieter as well. I was getting a 2E68 code if I drove low load without shifting for more than 30 seconds. I have trim pots on the knock sensors and they were set to 50k ohm. That code is the ECU saying it's getting not enough signal from the knock sensor, so I turned my trim pots down to 12k ohm, code went away, and I still have zero corrections (of course on very light load, I've seen max 3 psi of boost so far).
I also threw a VAC ATI damper on it to replace my old one, it's their newer v2.0 one, seems to be working fine.
Anyways what I am doing for break in and why.... given my rocker scoring last time I wanted to MAKE SURE I had enough ZDDP in my break in oil. Note this is a gear heads done head with their full port, shrick high lift cams, ferrea 1mm oversized valves, and ferrea springs... So rather than trying to use a cheap dino oil and use a ZDDP additive like I did last time I'm using a good break in oil with ZDDP. ZDDP is a known NEEDED chemical for proper cam break in for cams that have a high pressure life, like pushrod V8's with flat tappet cams. The ZDDP will create a protective hard material layer on the metal that protects against wear on high pressure metal to metal contact points and will stay the life of the motor. ZDDP has been removed from most motor oils these days in an attempt to reduce phosphorus content (the P in ZDDP) to meet EPA guidelines.... We have a 4600 class cherokee we race in ultra 4 and our first motor we did break in on for it we did not use any ZDDP (and it's a push rod 4 liter straight 6) and we flattened a cam lobe after only 1 race because of it. Next motor was Russ Pottenger 4.7 liter stroker and we FOR SURE used ZDDP with it and didn't have the problem again.
Anyways, for that reason I'm using BR30 from driven race oils, which is a very well known break in oil and suggested by texas speed for their V8 engines, so if it works there, I'm going to assume it will work here. Many studies have also shown that ring break in has a lot to do with chemistry of your oil, and not just how slippery it is, which is why BR30 has no detergents in it and is formulated to help with ring break in while protecting your cam shaft and rockers.
From reading/watching the horsepower academy info on break in they also talk about how important it is for ring break in to not run high RPM's as it makes too much heat, and also exposing the rings to vacuum slow down (engine breaking) as under load they expand, but under coast they will contract, and the contract of the vacuum helps them not overheat after you essentially used them as sand paper against your cylinder wall. Further, ring break in occurs very quickly during the initial startup and run of the motor, somewhere between 60-80% of the break in occurs during the first 20 minutes of operation.
Given all that, here is exactly what I did:
1. pulled the spark plugs and had the fuel pump unplugged and hit the starter until I saw oil pressure build (I have an oil pressure gauge I added in the same location as the stock oil pressure switch). I hit the starter a few extra times just to be sure. This is to prime oil through the engine. The first run of the starter it showed no oil pressure for 10-15 seconds, so for sure this was needed.
2. Put the plugs back in (note I've taken to using dielectric grease on the ceramic of the plugs as I've found arc paths in the ceramic from spark attempting to escape in the past if I don't and it also lubricates the plug wires so they come off easier later (I'm using the PR coil setup)). Plugged in the fuel pump and cycled the ignition (without starting the engine) several times to build fuel pressure and prime the fuel system. Glad I did this as I found a fuel leak I had to fix before attempting the first real start. A port plug on my PI rail was not tight enough and I had to tighten it.
3. Started the engine and immediately checked for oil pressure and any leaks, so about a minute of letting it idle (she started up quick due to my priming of the fuel system), then got back in the car and gave it enough throttle to hit 3k RPM slowly over a few seconds then let off to give it "coast", and then repeated this every 30 seconds for 20 minutes allowing the engine to come to full temperature.
4. At 20 minutes I shut it off and let it cool, checked the torque on the valve cover bolts and changed the oil and filter (second set of BR30 break in oil). Filter had no metal shavings in it (unlike the ghassan motor which had a decent number of metal shavings in it when I did this same step). Oil had some VERY fine metal particulates in it when I drained it, kind of like how used diff oil looks. So that went well!
5. Now the next step is to drive lightly for 500 miles and change the oil and filter again, going to my usual choice of Schaefer's 9000 5w40. I'll capture a black stone labs sample of this oil and send it off to be analyzed per Octane's request.
6. I will then slowly introduce the motor to more and more boost over the next 500 miles.
I've got a motiv reflex running my PI and boost control, all tuned by Jake at motiv, so the tune has not changed at all from what I ran on the ghassan motor, neither the MHD side or the reflex side. LPFP control is done with a 50 amp H bridge running walbro 450's in parallel (so dual half H bridge), which is driven by a PID controller I wrote on an arduino M0 which gives a PWM output to drive the H bridge, then I give the stock EKP a load resistor to drive current through so the ECU doesn't complain as well as using that signal to activate a SSR which pulses the walbro's on when you unlock the car or open the drivers door so the HPFP stays happy (which is the firmware change they made so many years ago after the run of HPFP failures), and that is isolated using a diode so that if the H bridge is on the EKP can't drive the SSR.
Anyways, I'll keep you guys updated as break in continues. So far I'm very happy and a big shout out to Octane Enterprises (Matt and Ben both owners, Ben did the motor build). They took this on when no one else wanted to touch the motor, and yes it took 8 months to get here, but we are here and it's working.
Oh and if I didn't say it already this motor has the V2 VTT spline lock on it.
SHE LIVES!
New motor is in break in now, I did initial break in and first oil change on jack stands, now it's 500 miles of low load (first oil change and this current one on BR30 break in oil). I'll give specifics on what I'm doing for break in (and why) in a moment.
Motor went in well, ZERO leaks so far. I switched to the billet valve cover from VTT, which is working nicely (much better than the cast one!), and the head is not leaking coolant now (because it's properly torqued!). I've currently got about 20 miles on the motor with 3 heat cycles. This motor is much quieter to listen to, the ghassan motor had a very strange cam sound to it, which likely explains the scored rocker wheels. That sound is now completely gone. I made sure to extra lube the rocker wheels with high pressure assembly grease using a syringe before putting the valve cover on as well.
In fact, this motor is not only quiet on the ears, it's electrically quieter as well. I was getting a 2E68 code if I drove low load without shifting for more than 30 seconds. I have trim pots on the knock sensors and they were set to 50k ohm. That code is the ECU saying it's getting not enough signal from the knock sensor, so I turned my trim pots down to 12k ohm, code went away, and I still have zero corrections (of course on very light load, I've seen max 3 psi of boost so far).
I also threw a VAC ATI damper on it to replace my old one, it's their newer v2.0 one, seems to be working fine.
Anyways what I am doing for break in and why.... given my rocker scoring last time I wanted to MAKE SURE I had enough ZDDP in my break in oil. Note this is a gear heads done head with their full port, shrick high lift cams, ferrea 1mm oversized valves, and ferrea springs... So rather than trying to use a cheap dino oil and use a ZDDP additive like I did last time I'm using a good break in oil with ZDDP. ZDDP is a known NEEDED chemical for proper cam break in for cams that have a high pressure life, like pushrod V8's with flat tappet cams. The ZDDP will create a protective hard material layer on the metal that protects against wear on high pressure metal to metal contact points and will stay the life of the motor. ZDDP has been removed from most motor oils these days in an attempt to reduce phosphorus content (the P in ZDDP) to meet EPA guidelines.... We have a 4600 class cherokee we race in ultra 4 and our first motor we did break in on for it we did not use any ZDDP (and it's a push rod 4 liter straight 6) and we flattened a cam lobe after only 1 race because of it. Next motor was Russ Pottenger 4.7 liter stroker and we FOR SURE used ZDDP with it and didn't have the problem again.
Anyways, for that reason I'm using BR30 from driven race oils, which is a very well known break in oil and suggested by texas speed for their V8 engines, so if it works there, I'm going to assume it will work here. Many studies have also shown that ring break in has a lot to do with chemistry of your oil, and not just how slippery it is, which is why BR30 has no detergents in it and is formulated to help with ring break in while protecting your cam shaft and rockers.
From reading/watching the horsepower academy info on break in they also talk about how important it is for ring break in to not run high RPM's as it makes too much heat, and also exposing the rings to vacuum slow down (engine breaking) as under load they expand, but under coast they will contract, and the contract of the vacuum helps them not overheat after you essentially used them as sand paper against your cylinder wall. Further, ring break in occurs very quickly during the initial startup and run of the motor, somewhere between 60-80% of the break in occurs during the first 20 minutes of operation.
Given all that, here is exactly what I did:
1. pulled the spark plugs and had the fuel pump unplugged and hit the starter until I saw oil pressure build (I have an oil pressure gauge I added in the same location as the stock oil pressure switch). I hit the starter a few extra times just to be sure. This is to prime oil through the engine. The first run of the starter it showed no oil pressure for 10-15 seconds, so for sure this was needed.
2. Put the plugs back in (note I've taken to using dielectric grease on the ceramic of the plugs as I've found arc paths in the ceramic from spark attempting to escape in the past if I don't and it also lubricates the plug wires so they come off easier later (I'm using the PR coil setup)). Plugged in the fuel pump and cycled the ignition (without starting the engine) several times to build fuel pressure and prime the fuel system. Glad I did this as I found a fuel leak I had to fix before attempting the first real start. A port plug on my PI rail was not tight enough and I had to tighten it.
3. Started the engine and immediately checked for oil pressure and any leaks, so about a minute of letting it idle (she started up quick due to my priming of the fuel system), then got back in the car and gave it enough throttle to hit 3k RPM slowly over a few seconds then let off to give it "coast", and then repeated this every 30 seconds for 20 minutes allowing the engine to come to full temperature.
4. At 20 minutes I shut it off and let it cool, checked the torque on the valve cover bolts and changed the oil and filter (second set of BR30 break in oil). Filter had no metal shavings in it (unlike the ghassan motor which had a decent number of metal shavings in it when I did this same step). Oil had some VERY fine metal particulates in it when I drained it, kind of like how used diff oil looks. So that went well!
5. Now the next step is to drive lightly for 500 miles and change the oil and filter again, going to my usual choice of Schaefer's 9000 5w40. I'll capture a black stone labs sample of this oil and send it off to be analyzed per Octane's request.
6. I will then slowly introduce the motor to more and more boost over the next 500 miles.
I've got a motiv reflex running my PI and boost control, all tuned by Jake at motiv, so the tune has not changed at all from what I ran on the ghassan motor, neither the MHD side or the reflex side. LPFP control is done with a 50 amp H bridge running walbro 450's in parallel (so dual half H bridge), which is driven by a PID controller I wrote on an arduino M0 which gives a PWM output to drive the H bridge, then I give the stock EKP a load resistor to drive current through so the ECU doesn't complain as well as using that signal to activate a SSR which pulses the walbro's on when you unlock the car or open the drivers door so the HPFP stays happy (which is the firmware change they made so many years ago after the run of HPFP failures), and that is isolated using a diode so that if the H bridge is on the EKP can't drive the SSR.
Anyways, I'll keep you guys updated as break in continues. So far I'm very happy and a big shout out to Octane Enterprises (Matt and Ben both owners, Ben did the motor build). They took this on when no one else wanted to touch the motor, and yes it took 8 months to get here, but we are here and it's working.
Oh and if I didn't say it already this motor has the V2 VTT spline lock on it.
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150 miles on the motor now, it's becoming more difficult to stay off the go juice pedal.
I got her up to redline this evening in first, but at only 6 psi, and then earlier on the highway I got it up to 12 psi in 6th gear at 2700 rpm (Not even half throttle).... I don't know if it's the fact that my charge air temps are in the 50's as the temperature out is nice or what but she really has no issues building boost at lower RPM. VERY responsive to throttle input. Once she hits 4000 rpm she feels like a beast who was let out of its cage, it's hard to hold the boost back it just wants to ROCKET. I let it hold 10 PSI up to 6k RPM in 3rd one time.
I forgot how crazy this car is. I've been driving my turbo diesel and jeep (which has the old straight 6 4.0 in it, so it's a DOG), and so getting back into a vehicle that is this fast is very eye opening. It's faster than my mazda 3 (2.5L non turbo manual) at even 15% throttle. Reminds me of the difference between a mare and colt... you kick a mare and she looks at you says "you want me to go faster?... what are you crazy?..." you brush a colt with your heel and it's like "LETS GOOOO!" and you're having to post.
She goes through the RPM's effortlessly. The only problems, which existed before, where that at warm up from cold she posts some O2 sensor correlation codes which I just clear and it's fine (from what jake at motiv was telling me they are normal to get), and then I get issues at very light throttle right when it crosses over from vacuum to positive pressure in the manifold where it kind of sputters.
I got her up to redline this evening in first, but at only 6 psi, and then earlier on the highway I got it up to 12 psi in 6th gear at 2700 rpm (Not even half throttle).... I don't know if it's the fact that my charge air temps are in the 50's as the temperature out is nice or what but she really has no issues building boost at lower RPM. VERY responsive to throttle input. Once she hits 4000 rpm she feels like a beast who was let out of its cage, it's hard to hold the boost back it just wants to ROCKET. I let it hold 10 PSI up to 6k RPM in 3rd one time.
I forgot how crazy this car is. I've been driving my turbo diesel and jeep (which has the old straight 6 4.0 in it, so it's a DOG), and so getting back into a vehicle that is this fast is very eye opening. It's faster than my mazda 3 (2.5L non turbo manual) at even 15% throttle. Reminds me of the difference between a mare and colt... you kick a mare and she looks at you says "you want me to go faster?... what are you crazy?..." you brush a colt with your heel and it's like "LETS GOOOO!" and you're having to post.
She goes through the RPM's effortlessly. The only problems, which existed before, where that at warm up from cold she posts some O2 sensor correlation codes which I just clear and it's fine (from what jake at motiv was telling me they are normal to get), and then I get issues at very light throttle right when it crosses over from vacuum to positive pressure in the manifold where it kind of sputters.
Awesome news! Hopefully it will be smooth sailing now. I can't remember, did you mention what turbo/kit you're running?
Well I can't get my boost control on the reflex to work after updating to the can bus support, not sure what the problem is, I've double checked all the settings, I don't get any error in MHD from it even after doing a full flash write, though I also don't see any of the reflex can bus outputs change values. Even hooked up to the reflex using tuner pro rt and a laptop and was able to see everything just fine, reported boost pressure, rpm, etc. I tested the MAC valve, it's working, but I simply get nothing out of the reflex on aux 1.
Waste gate appears to be working as it will only let me build spring pressure.
But while testing the reflex trying to get it working I've now run into another problem (FML).... the car is now throwing 2A9F. It's constant and immediate, once the engine throws the code (after you clear it) it immediately runs ok, but something is for sure not right there. I checked for 12v on the orange wire for the exhaust cam sensor, and it's good. I replaced the exhaust cam sensor, still immediately blow the code, swapped vanos solenoids hoping it would may be fallow one, still immediately blow the code.
I could try clearing adaptations for the cam possibly... I may check for continuity between the exhaust cam sensor and the ECU on the voltage sense line as that's easier than pulling the valve cover to check timing.... Other than it slipping timing or a bad wire I could have a stuck vanos actuator, but you'd think I'd get other codes with the 2A9F if that was the case. I really hope it's just a wiring problem... could also be a cam ledge not holding oil pressure.
Edit: checked the wiring for the exhaust cam sensor and the exhaust vanos solenoid, both checked out. Thanks to the VTT valve cover I was able to put my finder on the exhaust cam timing plate, it's not loose, stuck a bore scope down there and turned the engine over by hand with a breaker bar and the main crank bolt is tight, timing (from that distorted view) looks decent, so if it's off it's off by only a little bit.
I'm going to pull both the vanos oil filter cages and see what I find there, if I don't see anything I'll have to proceed to pulling the valve cover and checking timing with the timing tool. If timing is good I'll have to replace the exhaust vanos actuator. If gets to that point I'll buy new vanos actuators and timing plates as well as the cam bolts.
Edit 2: one of the vanos check valves was acting a little funny, replaced it, still getting the code.... so the valve cover is coming off.
Waste gate appears to be working as it will only let me build spring pressure.
But while testing the reflex trying to get it working I've now run into another problem (FML).... the car is now throwing 2A9F. It's constant and immediate, once the engine throws the code (after you clear it) it immediately runs ok, but something is for sure not right there. I checked for 12v on the orange wire for the exhaust cam sensor, and it's good. I replaced the exhaust cam sensor, still immediately blow the code, swapped vanos solenoids hoping it would may be fallow one, still immediately blow the code.
I could try clearing adaptations for the cam possibly... I may check for continuity between the exhaust cam sensor and the ECU on the voltage sense line as that's easier than pulling the valve cover to check timing.... Other than it slipping timing or a bad wire I could have a stuck vanos actuator, but you'd think I'd get other codes with the 2A9F if that was the case. I really hope it's just a wiring problem... could also be a cam ledge not holding oil pressure.
Edit: checked the wiring for the exhaust cam sensor and the exhaust vanos solenoid, both checked out. Thanks to the VTT valve cover I was able to put my finder on the exhaust cam timing plate, it's not loose, stuck a bore scope down there and turned the engine over by hand with a breaker bar and the main crank bolt is tight, timing (from that distorted view) looks decent, so if it's off it's off by only a little bit.
I'm going to pull both the vanos oil filter cages and see what I find there, if I don't see anything I'll have to proceed to pulling the valve cover and checking timing with the timing tool. If timing is good I'll have to replace the exhaust vanos actuator. If gets to that point I'll buy new vanos actuators and timing plates as well as the cam bolts.
Edit 2: one of the vanos check valves was acting a little funny, replaced it, still getting the code.... so the valve cover is coming off.
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