Ad: Hydra Performance Official Product Release Thread

[Torgus]

A vendor rating their n54 turbos with meaningful lb/min ratings and using bhp? Unheard of in the n54 twin space. Way to go.

I wish you the best of luck!

Only thing this product release is missing is maxed out dyno #s imo. Edit: and preferably not on a built head motor with cams intake manifold etc. Be nice for people to see real word results. I always wonder if the reason we see so few twin upgrade dynos is that they never touch the vendors #s but I am just speculating.

 

[Hydra Performance]

Gents,
PMs answered and initial post updated with warranty details + a small sentimental blurb.

I have been accumulating a useful body of data for both the HP650s and the HP800s on various customers'' cars from around the world. My plan was to wait until I had #s from my car, for a top-down introduction before revealing everything I've got.Here are a few noteworthy snippets of information in the meantime.

- 100-200 time of 6.46s for a regular customer-built full-weight (minus rear seat delete) FBO (i.e. no headwork, no cams, no intake manifold, and no meth) 6MT 135 running HP650s @ just 20.x psi on German Aral 102RON. The best the same car could do on the TTE550s it previously had was a 7.1 @ 24.x psi which shows you how well my housings are working considering both turbos have almost identical wheel sizes. The HPFP crashing above 20.x psi (whereas it would hold more on the TTE550s) is another useful indicator, and is why we stopped there.

- The same car above put down 572bhp DIN ECE on a German dyno. I was predicting >580 so it might have been a low-reading dyno, but its irrelevant. What is relevant is that peak power came in at 6900-7000rpm which is higher than you would expect to see for an untouched N54 running "baby" stock-frame twins, and further demonstrates how well my housings allow the motor to breathe. It goes without saying that peak power RPM will shift to the left as the boost is raised and the compressor flow limit is approached, but still food for thought regardless. Another interesting observation is how the same car running the same fuel could now run more ignition timing advance on the HP650s than it could on the old TTE550s. This is because the resulting better boost/backpressure ratio = lower residual exhaust fraction = cooler temps during the compression stroke = further from the knock limit = more timing.

-100-200 time of 5.89 for a regular customer-built full-weight FBO 6AT 335xi running an alpha version of the HP800s @ 26.x psi on 98RON + meth. Same car trapped 135.5mph first time out despite a driving error on the 1-2 shift, and would have no doubt gone quicker on its second attempt had the car in the other lane not crashed into it. Car has been stuck in limbo ever since.

-15psi @ 3050rpm on a regular customer-built FBO 6MT 135 running HP800s on E85. This was done in 4th gear starting from 2200rpm with no brake-boosting or anti-lag (not that there's anything wrong with using either, just pointing it out for the sake of clarity). Customer reports little subjective difference in torque above 2000rpm compared to stock, and says the car is "scary" on MPSSs in cold weather despite running just 16psi.


-15psi @ 3100rpm on my personal shop-built frankenmotor 6MT 135 running HP800s on pump gas. This was done in 3rd gear starting from 1800rpm with no brake-boosting or anti-lag. Note that I am running a 3.46 diff and my car is significantly lighter than stock , and that this pull was done in warm weather, none of which helps spool the turbos any sooner...

Again, please excuse this informal presentation of data. I will be posting dyno graphs, datazap links, and dragy times to back up all my claims very soon, until then bear with me

 

[Team503]

In for updates.

 

[Asbjorn]

I am excited to see a double walled manifold option, as I have seen both a canister and a silicone hose melt after having been on track dates with the cast manifold from VTT.

A few questions related to the HP650 below. And keep in mind I am a GC lites owner who needs all the spool and reliability he can get for the track at below 21psi. Ethanol is not available here in China where I am based.

* Would the H650 spool quicker than the GC lites 2.0, and why / why not in your opinion? What about transient response? What would be the weight difference of spooling parts?
* What bearing type is used here? And why is it suitable for track use below 21psi as stated.
* Are the waste gates upgraded and how? (My OEM turbos went out due to stuck open wg on track) I still miss their sound and spool though.
* Speaking of sound - will the HP650 sound a bit raspy like the GC lites at high rpm, or more like stockers.
* What are the reasons behind deselecting the Inconel 713L high flow 9 blade TD04L turbine that VTT selected for their 2.0s?
* What kind of outlets / hot side charge pipes do you recommend to run these? And what kind of inlets are needed? Do the GC lites accessories fit?
* Any solutions for customers based in China? I may have a friend or two here who would like to pay in RMB and not having to deal with Chinese customs.

Obviously the ST kit just went to market as well. Why would these twins spool quicker than say a GTX 3071 Gen II? Some say they will, some say they won't.

 

[zcchen]

^ I am one of the friends Asbjorn mentioned above
Like said, highly interested in a turbo upgrade maximized for 98RON and track days. Ideally, 98RON with no additives, 20psi peak, HP peak @ >6,000rpm and flat-ish HP curve from 5,500rpm to 7,000rpm, sub 7 100-200 time. That would seal the deal for me.

 

[doublespaces]

@Asbjorn clearly you've thought about this a lot, nice questions.

 

[Traf]

As far as sound is concerned, i can shim in. I went from stockers to HP800, and when Omar told me the sound would change i didn't believe him, thats untill i started the car for the first time...
It is hard to describe, but it is definitely louder, deeper too, as far as rasp is concerned, i think it decreased a little bit. You kinda hear the increase in flow throughout the whole exhaust path.

 

[Hydra Performance]

Gents,
To answer your questions above.
- Any difference in spool or transient response between the HP650s and the GC Lites 2.0 is likely to be minimal. I suspect the HP650s would be more or less = to the Lites as far as boost threshold goes, and offer slightly quicker time to torque on account of the smaller compressor wheel and more compact double-walled manifold, but truth be told the difference isn't going to be night and day.

- Bearing type is standard MHI TD04 fare, and has proven to be reliable in service across several OEM platforms over the years. The boost you can run on track has less to do with bearing type and more to do with cooling limits, chassis setup, and driving ability. A customer who spent a week on the Nordschleife remarked that he had "too much power" at 20psi and wanted to try a 15psi map next time around.

- Wastegate actuators are brand new OEM BMW , and the bushing/flapper itself is also brand new and not reconditioned, so should give years of trouble-free service.

- As for sound, the bigger turbine nozzle + exducer diameter will allow more noise to pass through compared to stock. Unfortunately this might promote rasp on a completely decatted setup - a small price to pay for all the extra performance benefits IMO.

- Reasons for my turbine wheel selection is that, with all due respect to everyone else, you absolutely CANNOT beat OEM turbine wheels (be they Garrett, MHI, Borg Warner, etc) for quality, reliability, or durability when used in the correct fashion. Plus based on my experience with various Evos, MHI's basic 12-blade design performs very well when properly-sized for the application.

- As for ancilliaries, any standard 2" inlets will fit, and I can configure the HP650s for 1.81" inlets if necessary. Any hose-clamp style (NOT V-band) LHD 3-series outlets will fit, I can supply a suitable solution if you like.

- I will do my best to accomodate you and your friend's specific needs, PM me for details

-As for comparisons with a single Gen2 GTX3071 , I don't want to turn this into a ST vs TT debate, as I've already made my feelings clear on the subject in my build thread. But keep in mind that the GTX3071 actually has LESS overall flow capacity than the HP650s. However It does , as a first approximation, have ~40% more rotational inertia than a pair of TD04L turbos believe it or not. What this means is that while boost threshold *may* be lower (and I doubt it), time to torque won't be any better despite the use of ball bearings and smaller overall capacity. There is a reason why BMW's creme de la creme I6 (the S55) uses twins and not a single as it does on the more pedestrian versions...

@zcchen Everything you've asked for has already been proven to be well within the realm of possibility. Give these a try and I PROMISE you won't be disappointed

 

[Lurcher]

@Asbjorn clearly you've thought about this a lot, nice questions.

I'm beginning to think he doesn't work for living, or just has no social life I am envious of the track time he gets...

 

[mikeseli]

- HP650/800 turbos

The centerpiece of our design is its hotside, an investment-cast SS volute with a nozzle area of 6.6cm^2 (35% more than stock, or 10% more than S55) , right in the sweet spot for the TD04-family of turbines.

This turbine volute nozzle area of 6.6cm^2, is that the area during the entry or at a given position inside the turbine volute geometry?
How is the turbine A/R housing ratio affected by this area increase?

 

[Hydra Performance]

@mikeseli
6.6cm^2 is the area at a given position inside the turbine housing volute, right at the "tongue" of the housing right where flow starts to flow radially inwards towards the turbine wheel. This area is the "A" in A/R ratio, but then keep in mind I also opened up the "R" as well

None of this really means all that much without real-world performance figures to back up all the theory. So for starters here are a couple of logs of the HP650 on 2 different cars, along with a dragy timeslip @ 20psi:

https://datazap.me/u/s3mm3l/wot-4th-5th-6th-v7?log=0&data=3-7-16-19-23-30&mark=129

Note that 15psi comes up @ 2830rpm in 3rd gear

https://datazap.me/u/sexyraffi/v11-dyno?log=0&data=3-7-24-28&zoom=88-234&mark=129

On the dyno, put down 572PS DIN ECE , did the below 100-200 pass literally a couple of hours afterwards

More #s to come later... This is only the beginning

 

[Rob09msport]

I love how conservative these are being rated. Just look at people doing 500whp on stockers and these are over 30 percent bigger or 10 percent bigger then s55 turbos and people snack 10s and 13x mph so all these numbers are very obtainable.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I'm liking the numbers so far, definitely cementing in my mind that these will be one of the top 3 options for twins. That spoop time is almost right in line with my 1Ks (I know some people dont want comparisons between two different turbos with two different goals, but I mean it in a positive way only as my 1Ks have been beautiful performers so far).

I'm interested to see what people will be able to do in the 1/4 with either of these. I'm one of the folks who prefers twins and I'd really like to see more twin cars running those single turbo times - really more people should be able to considering what's needed for the 1/4 and how many twins are advertised.

 

[fmorelli]

@barry@3DM and I are in. We ordered the left hand side of the menu and will begin on the Z4 to press in and explore. Needless to say we like what we have seen, and our discussions with Omar have done nothing but back up first impressions.

Filippo

 

[Hydra Performance]

@Panzerfaust
1/4mi ET is primarily a function of traction/launch/60' and has less to do with whp than we generally think. An almost full-weight <600whp stick shift Evo can do 9.7 ETs with the right setup, yet you have several 800whp cars still in the 11s... A better performance metric is 100-200/60-130 times , as that removes traction from the equation and shifts focus solely on power/weight.
While its never completely fair to compare different cars/setups, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the HP800s appear to be slightly outspooling the 1ks based on the data I've seen so far?


Filippo,
Thank you for your business, I'm looking forward to hearing you and Barry's feedback on these puppies

 

[Rob09msport]

@barry@3DM and I are in. We ordered the left hand side of the menu and will begin on the Z4 to press in and explore. Needless to say we like what we have seen, and our discussions with Omar have done nothing but back up first impressions.

Filippo

I going with the 650s to it was very hard choice for me but I want best response and I don't want pi so I think I wouldn't even use the potential of the 800s on my setup of 93 maybe a little meth for safety.

 

[ShocknAwe]

I going with the 650s to it was very hard choice for me but I want best response and I don't want pi so I think I wouldn't even use the potential of the 800s on my setup of 93 maybe a little meth for safety.

Struggling with the decision myself. Thinking the 800s might actually be better for 93. I waffle back and forth every day.

 

[Hydra Performance]

Once again, for straight 93oct its pretty simple
HP650s for a regular N54, HP800s all day every day if one has the intention of adding headwork and cams down the line, and revving to the moon

 

[ShocknAwe]

Once again, for 93oct its pretty simple
HP650s for a regular N54, HP800s all day every day if one has the intention of adding headwork and cams down the line, and revving to the moon

How would one go about adding headwork and cams down the line? Since they require custom manifolds at that point and those beautiful Boysens are fusion welded.

 

[Hydra Performance]

I can always exchange them for you down the line you know
With that said, my personal opinion when it comes to mods is that if I decide I am willing to do something, and the money for it is there, then why wait? I know it sounds hedonistic, but I'd rather get my money's worth sooner rather than later...