Technical How can a valve cover heat up fuel lines?

[rev210]

Im not sure about the valve cover being a culprit myself. But, in the pursuit of cooler fuel there is benifits so why not take a look in the interest of science? But, I would also think about the whole system too, I think this is where Marty is really coming from (last 1%ers being the lines). For example , the introduction of a return based system vs returnless. Is the valve cover the real criminal? My brain says the heat exchanger capabillities of the little lines will be pretty poor. But, to say nay , you would have to measure it properly
If we really want the coolest fuel then you can actively cool it down via a cool can setup or the cry02 sort of CO2 setups DEI make. For drag racing. 3mins of CO2 at full thottle for 10lb tank.
On EFI I think most of the heat would come from the fuel pumps themselves.

 

[JohnDaviz]

Heating of fuel lines over air from the VC This is killing me. This thread is hilarious. Who in the world thinks that.

The only heat transfer point is with direct contact. And then it depends on the materials in direct contact how good the heat transfer can happen.

 

[martymil]

Just like when I called the vacuum pump will crack on the helix and everybody mocked me lol.

Mock all you want, I've done more testing on 93 than anyone on this platform and have achieved better results than most running e85 and reliably in any conditions thrown at it.

My last post on this topic as it's going nowhere.

 

[The Convert]

Just like when I called the vacuum pump will crack on the helix and everybody mocked me lol.

Mock all you want, I've done more testing on 93 than anyone on this platform and have achieved better results than most running e85 and reliably in any conditions thrown at it.

My last post on this topic as it's going nowhere.

I guaranfuckingtee you that you have not done more 93 octane testing than anyone else on this platform. You have got to be delusional as fuck to really think that. Tony alone likely drags your dick through the dirt, and he is but one person, nevermind all the other vendors and tuners. This platform would be in the exact same place without you.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Listen, I like our VC a billion times more than anyone elses and there are solid reasons for that, but worrying about heat in the lines is -at this point- clearly more in the noise than anything else and I'm pretty sure everyone knows it. Incremental? Sure why not? Don't really think it matters, but the same guys worrying about the weight of a silicone coolant hose don't really get to say tiny temp differences in a fuel line won't matter... just out of consistency.

Chris

 

[martymil]

I have been refining and testing the n54 for almost 3 years in extreme temperatures of 110f+ on twins and single turbo on 93.

I don't know anyone that has done such harsh testing period.

Its not about any brand of product as its all about airflow, I'll use any product to push this platform forward that will give me that extra edge in our stupid weather conditions reliably.

The vtt cover is not the only VC with proper airflow around the fuel lines.

I can easily claim we have the fastest n54 on 93 in Oz that runs [email protected] on street tyres with no meth and no E85 at all but I really don't care less
and if someone wants to beat it I'll bet they can but not reliably.

The run was on dead set clean 93 no octane booster or e85 and that is running almost 28psi up top,

Its all about reliability, longevity and doing it safely and repeatably nothing more.

We heat soaked the shit out of the car to see how many timing corrections we would get, the car is actually faster now with next to no corrections
but we haven't been back to the track for awhile to test the new products or mods.

The difference on clean 93 and E 13 to E 20 on the dyno is 6rwk on the same tune.

This to show we don't hide anything or manipulate any of our testing in anyway and the run proves the car makes power and on a side note I was told
I would loose power running 9.5 comp and was stupid for doing so by many parties.

I'm not here to promote any products, in the end you can run any valve cover you want its your choice and having airflow around the fuel lines
has its advantages, if you choose to believe it or not is completely up to the individual.

Its all about testing the car on 93 and heat management in stupid conditions, anyone can run on a cool day and have no problems.

datazap.me | martymil | Log 1583776207

datazap.me

 

[JohnDaviz]

I have been refining and testing the n54 for almost 3 years in extreme temperatures of 110f+ on twins and single turbo on 93.

I read a lot of your posts and found many of them adding value to my project. But sometimes ppl have to admit here or there that they may be going OCD or simply being wrong based on non scientific thinking.

Your car is great and nobody doubts that you are doing great things with your car. But that doesn´t make you being right in every point.

 

[martymil]

OCD I am

Nothing scientific about benefits of lower fuel temp plenty of reports and papers on that already.

Like I said one can believe it or not don't really care but any benefit is better than none even if it's small

 

[JohnDaviz]

OCD I am

Nothing scientific about benefits of lower fuel temp plenty of reports and papers on that already.

Like I said one can believe it or not don't really care but any benefit is better than none even if it's small

I believe the effect of lower fuel temps. That is undoubted.
But it seems you over read that i meant that you can be wrong sometimes i.e. in the topic of VC heating fuel lines over air.

 

[9krpmrx8]

Mercedes and others have had fuel coolers plumbed into the AC system for years. I believe the Hellcat uses a similar setup. You can get the Mercedes fuel coolers on Ebay cheap.

 

[AUbeast86]

 

[Milan]

Heating of fuel lines over air from the VC This is killing me. This thread is hilarious. Who in the world thinks that.

The only heat transfer point is with direct contact. And then it depends on the materials in direct contact how good the heat transfer can happen.

Found the guy who failed elementary school science class

 

[martymil]

The issue with our system is the fuel is in a non return style system after the hpfp and this is where the problem starts as there is no fuel cooler
that will handle our fuel rail pressure whilst effectively cooling the fuel after the hpfp.

But you guys bring up a decent idea to the table on a fuel cooler but the fuel entering the fuel pump is barely above ambient but on hot days a fuel chiller
will bring a decent benefit if the ac system is used to help lower temps.

Need to look into this some more

Whilst my car was of the road and engine rebuilt at the time I started thinking about heat reduction as it wasn't going to cost me much to do things at that point.

Maybe I wouldn't go out of my way just to do it before as my thinking was the same as everybody else, knowing what I do now things are different and since there is so many sceptics I'll be doing a full write up on it comparing my 335i and its stock fuel system to my 1m at some stage.

Moving the hpfp away from the engine block has a decent effect in lowering fuel and pump temps where before the hpfp sits on the block it gets
placed in direct airflow path when using a shotgun.

Then you have the fuel rail, placing small phenolic washers between the rail and block and between rail and bolt eliminates
direct heat transfer into the rail.

Then modifying the cowl to let heat escape between the bonnet and windscreen places the fuel lines, coil packs in good direct airflow path.

Ceramic coating the rocker cover to keep heat it in and away from the coil packs, wiring and fuel lines will help too.

Any heat reduction is beneficial no matter how little as it all adds up.

 

[AUbeast86]

This thread is beginning to look a lot like this...

 

[martymil]

This thread is beginning to look a lot like this...

That is your opinion and opnions are like arseholes so bring a decent argument.

 

[Torgus]

This log is on 93 with no e content and half a bottle of octane booster. Yes you can run 93 pump with no corrections by using Nulon Pro strengh octane booster

You claim running a half bottle of octane booster on 93 E00 is the equivalent of E20 which is what you have to run on your decompressed built motor to hit 26psi on GCs at 119F with zero corrections. Your statement.

https://www.nulon.com.au/products/pro-strength-additives/pro-strength-octane-booster.pdf

500 ml per bottle. Half a bottle is 250ml. 250ml is 0.066043 gallons. You have a magical mixture that when you add less than 1/10th of a gallon it suddenly boosts your octane so the fuel has the anti knock of E20. 0.066 Yeah I am going to call bullshit.

Running cooler fuel doesn't do anything for performance.

Science says otherwise. Isn't that your whole argument? Jesus. You can't stay on topic. Now cooler fuel does nothing for performance?

any benefit is better than none even if it's small

You should make a CAI for your turbos. Make a box, use the gold and silver tape everywhere, duct in fresh air, come on man make it. Every little bit helps!

At the cost and time of buying another vc, installing it, selling the old one at a loss, and then trashing the old one online(which you then sold to a customer) making up bullshit about fuel rails to make the other vc look better. No one in their right mind would do that because of 'fuel rails heating up over an air gap'. You also bought the m18 knowing exactly what the fuel lines and vc would look like ahead of time. If you thought it was a bad design why buy it in the 1st? Things do not add up.

My last post on this topic

Yet you continue, post after post, about something stupid you said that I called you out on. The more you argue that one vc design is superior to the others because of the fuel line airflow just discredits you further and further. Christ man.

Moving the hpfp away from the engine block has a decent effect in lowering fuel and pump temps where before the hpfp sits on the block it gets
placed in direct airflow path when using a shotgun.

Proof of that statement? Or just conjecture? I don't see how as the shotgun is still connected metal on metal to the block and you are now spinning it what 30% faster? The LPFP and HPFP are going to contribute to your fuel temps a great deal. Now you have 2 HPFPs heating up the fuel, one over spun 30%. The fact is the fuel lines are connected to the injectors in the head and combustion chamber. Unless you can thermally decouple BOTH SIDES of the fuel rail: the injectors and HPFP, there is no way to 'cool down' the lines so it will matter in any way shape or form. Even then, I am sure it makes zero difference in real world performance.

Spinning the HPFP 30% more will raise temps more than moving lower, it is still tucked behind the shotgun/ac compressor all metal on metal, metal transfers heat amazingly well, air, not so much in comparison.

The issue with our system is the fuel is in a non return style system

A return style would only heat up the fuel more. There is no point in 'chilling it' after the HPFP just to have it go back into the tank to get heated up again by 2-3 LPFPs, and 1-2 HPFPs especially if they are being over driven. That is not the 'issue' with our fuel system.



If fuel temp was a real issue you would not be running a shotgun overspinning the HPFP. PERIOD. It's not, just like the fuel lines are not going to heat up over the air gap in any meaningful way with either VC. Again, keep selling that snake oil.



@doublespaces for the love of god hope he never finds your thread about the vc cover!

 

[martymil]

Science says otherwise.

In a pi system maybe but not on di you love omitting key wording from my statements to support your agenda.

At the cost and time of buying another vc, installing it, selling the old one at a loss, and then trashing the old one online(which you then just sold to a customer) making up bullshit about fuel rails to make the other vc look better. No one in their right mind would do that because 'fuel rails heating up over an air gap'. You also bought the m18 knowing exactly what the fuel lines and vc would look like ahead of time. If you thought it was a bad design why buy it in the 1st place? Things do not add up.

The stock VC and m18 cover radiates heat with no airflow just like cooking a rotisserie chicken in an oven.

Yet you continue post after post about something stupid you said that I called you out on. The more you argue that one vc design is superior to the others because of the fuel line airflow just discredits you further and further.

Doesn't discredit me at all, your opinion is just that.

Proof of that statement? I don't see how as the shotgun is still connected metal on metal to the block and you are now spinning it what 30% faster? The LPFP and HPFP are going to contribute to your fuel temps a great deal. Now you have 2 HPFPs heating up the fuel. The fact is the fuel lines are connected to the injectors in the head and combustion chamber. Unless you can thermally decouple BOTH SIDES of the fuel rail: the injectors and HPFP, there is no way to 'cool down' the lines so it will matter in any way shape or form.

Spinning the HPFP 30% more will raise temps more than moving lower, it is still tucked behind and metal on metal, metal transfers heat amazingly well, air, not so much:
View attachment 35785

At least it is in an airflow path where the stock pump is not, in a double barrel system the second pump only works in high load conditions and is basically
there to support keeping the fuel pressure up, most of the fuel flow will come from the overdriven pump.

Like I said get yourself an ir no contact thermometer and measure the difference in pump temps between the two locations.

A return style would only heat up the fuel more. There is no point in 'chilling it' after the HPFP just to have it go back into the tank to get heated up again by 2-3 LPFPs, and 1-2 HPFPs especially if they are being over driven.

Again you don't seem to grasp how our fuel system works, chilling the fuel after the hpfp before it goes to the injector would be greatly beneficial for performance but it cant be done on our system due to the 3200 to 3600 psi pressures without a huge expense for some gain if it could.

 

[AUbeast86]

That is your opinion and opnions are like arseholes so bring a decent argument.

Most of the shit you post in here is opinion, purely conjecture or personal preference so I refuse to engage you seriously now. You have a hyper-inflated opinion of yourself so there's really no need in wasting time with well though-out retorts much less gathering data and arranging it in a presentable manner for you just to completely dismiss it because you're the self-ordained SME of all things in the history of all things. Maybe it's due to the fact you have 6 kids. My brother has 3 and I can see the devastation that can do to one's self esteem so Zod only knows what 6 can do to a man. Or maybe your wife just has your bean bag on lock down in her satchel. Who knows. I really DGAF. So, in response to your request for me to bring a "decent" arguement...

 

[JohnDaviz]

Found the guy who failed elementary school science class

you dumb f**k . Air is 1*10^8 isolating. What is you argument on this discussion?

 

[Cruizinmax]

Just curious what the fuel temperature difference is on the m18 valve cover compared to oem with the factory beauty cover on? I would imagine that the oem valve cover with the cover would heat the fuel lines more than an aluminum valve cover. I also would think that difference would be miniscule compared to how much the injectors itself heats the fuel since it is actually in the combustion chamber. If it truly is an issue with heat radiating from the valve cover causing an issue could one temporarily use a thermal blocking material between the line and the valve cover to test. I would be willing to bet there was no difference and any issue resolved by switching the valve cover back was coincidental.