Discussion about issues encountered whilst converting to M3 Flash and GWS

[Stokes]

The before and after should be same power levels. Nothing changed on the car but TCU flash and adding the GWS and M3 Kombi. Maybe ambient temp and gas quality could be slightly different between the two. Not enough to cause a difference like 100Nm!

That's what confuses me. Also, I'll be lower on power than you guys due to factory snail N55. So maybe the part throttle shift isn't as sluggish for me because of that?

I wish I had more pre-TCU logs to compare back to. Deleted long ago.

EDIT: looking it up, factory is 400Nm. I'm only 500Nm at best. Why is it showing up as 600Nm now? Can it be calculated from parameters coming from TCU somehow? Built in to DME table based on the TCU being used? M3 S65 parameters somehow? 2 more cylinders could be worth another 100Nm, right?

 

[Stokes]

Hahaha, this mod adds several hundred Nm of torque. Best mod Eva! I don't know where it's getting it. Another log.

 

[aus335iguy]

I think another valid test would be to see if moving to manual MHD maps has the same effect on non M DCT

 

[dyezak]

I just reset DME Variants. That messes with stuff. I am a single dad this weekend as the wife unit is out on a girls weekend...so I can't go test driving while the boy is sleeping. But I'll take him for a couple low speed part throttle runs tomorrow. I can also reflash as an MT fairly easily but according to Jake that's not doing much of anything at all.

 

[aus335iguy]

according to Jake that's not doing much of anything at all.

He said “The only thing the MHD option does is set the Load to Torque tables and a few other tables a little differently (higher values because there is no TCU to bitch about too high torque”

If he’s right(lets face it he is ) that means that a manual flash will report torque higher than a DCT tune. That could cause the shifts to change. If it makes them better we will know that the M TCU needs higher levels of torque reported. If it gets worse it means that we have to report lower torque.

Well, that’s one theory anyway

 

[aus335iguy]

Also, If torque max is a issue - maybe we should also look at an F10 M5 flash?

 

[RSL]

He said “The only thing the MHD option does is set the Load to Torque tables and a few other tables a little differently (higher values because there is no TCU to bitch about too high torque”

If he’s right(lets face it he is ) that means that a manual flash will report torque higher than a DCT tune. That could cause the shifts to change. If it makes them better we will know that the M TCU needs higher levels of torque reported. If it gets worse it means that we have to report lower torque.

Well, that’s one theory anyway

Exactly what I've been getting at, torque changes are quick to make and test if anyone is running an unlocked map.

@Strokes torque output is a calculated internal value that has little to do with actual torque output of the motor. It may have been tuned close to actual output on a stock car from BMW, but that's out the window. You can tune it however you want. One I tried just for fun once. It's on the top torque limit cap at 737ft-lbs and I'm assuming it could go higher, but never tried.

 

[Stokes]

@RSL, I was assuming it's an estimated/calculated value. The gap between logs is too long to say for sure that external factors are or are not different. I don't recall ever seeing a torque value above low 500s, but without logs to point to, it's just going off memory and could be skewed, so let's not consider it.

Well, maybe if it stays dry long enough tomorrow, I can get some more logging done and try more variation in driving. Tonight we used the car to run errands and in D (trying different shift modes - S2 up to S5) and it was really smooth.

At S4 & S5 the shifts would get firmer the more throttle used. Honestly I couldn't tell much difference between 3, 4, or 5 on 3/4 throttle shifting. Part throttle was very smooth. Way nicer that the non-MDCT logic.

It kind of sucks for how quick it is to jump to 7th gear and it'll hold there as long as it can (Assuming loads of low end torque I presume - typical V8 program). Kind of fun cruising at 1200 rpm and using the turbo to build torque up.

Let's see if @dyezak has any changes to report after resetting variants. Could simply be that I'm experiences the car relearning post-resetting variants.

 

[RSL]

Whether it's the DME flash or variant reset, seems like things are moving in the right direction either way. I don't remember there being a big difference in the middle modes honestly, I always ran 1, 5 or 6. Will be curious to see dyezak's results also and hoping they are similar to yours.

If you had a 3.15 rear, you'd wish it shifted into 7th even faster and was an 8-speed lol You probably want to downshift rather than have a lot of boost that low in a high gear though. If you get super knock codes relying on just boost to accelerate in 6th or 7th like that, take that warning seriously and adjust your strategy.

 

[dyezak]

The M3 Center Console Switch Cluster x4444/s0241:

Connector View:

There is no pinout, so I figured it out for everyone:

Pin 1 - Brown/Bl to Ground
Pin 2 - to Power
Pin 4 - Orange to DME Connector #1 pin #12 (this activates POWER in the 1M flash)
Pin 6 - Blue/Gr to DSC Pin #41

The other pins are either empty or for EDC (which I don't have) and are not important.

 

[Stokes]

Something I miss with the old setup, pushing the sport button not only quickened the shifts, but it spooled up the turbo. I had linear throttle selected so that I didn't get the punchy throttle response. Anyway, I'm wondering if "P4 - Grey/Red - FOOTWELL MODULE (This was P4 on the 335is Sport button)" was the signal for that and with the Drive Logic button, that's now gone. I'm having a hard time finding a wiring diagram to trace it myself.

Also, nothing conclusive, but I reset the Kombi to E82 default and then added in the couple changes to get the display and proper RPM. Afterwards, part throttle shifting in D was interesting. It sounded like the engine was making music with the throttle during shifts. I switched over to manual mode and it was good, like before.

Something also not conclusive was shifting part throttle at shift logic 1 brought back the sluggish shift I had the first time I
tried this. The holding rpm until the next gear caught up. I'm having issues selecting the correct logs to include together with Datazap.me.

https://datazap.me/u/cstokes54/mdct-second-set-logs?log=0&data=3-12

3rd log in the set is shift logic 1

 

[Stokes]

I default coded KOMBI, JBBF, and DSC this morning. Remaining errors after clearing and driving are:

Transmission Control:
   Transmission / Getriebe GS 19
      :CAN bus / Embassy of the instrument cluster: Mileage Range / CAN message of the combination: outside temperature relative time / Embassy (raw data longitudinal acceleration, PT-CAN) from the DSC / Invalid Data Received from Operation gear selector
        Code: 00CF21
Gear switch / Gangschalter
      :Hall sensors simple errors / Supply voltage too low / Locking system: lock Tap back defective
        Code: 00A834
      :Failure Functional lighting / Park button jammed / Checksum error encoding parameters
        Code: 00A832
      :Embassy dimming / Embassy (dimming, 0x202) / News of the CAS is missing: data transmission via PT-CAN
        Code: 00E097
      :News of the EGS is missing: display data transmission PT-CAN / Embassy (display transmission data 0x1D2) / Message display data transmission CAN
        Code: 00E094

Did I forget to reset a module? Is GS19 generic or does the car still think the other GSW is there?

 

[Stokes]

Per the sport button... found this...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1035058&page=70
"While the button is being pressed, the GWS module broadcasts messageid 0x28D with data "EF FF", and when the button is released, it broadcasts "DF FF" 3 times."

Guessing that since the M3 has it's own "sport" button (aka Power button), the M3 GWS doesn't broadcast the message.

 

[dyezak]

Per the sport button... found this...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1035058&page=70
"While the button is being pressed, the GWS module broadcasts messageid 0x28D with data "EF FF", and when the button is released, it broadcasts "DF FF" 3 times."

Guessing that since the M3 has it's own "sport" button (aka Power button), the M3 GWS doesn't broadcast the message.

Yes, the M3 and the 1M both are direct wired from the POWER button to the DME. Just like the 335i(s) uses a PT-CAN message to control DSC functions, the M3 uses the DSC Disable button that is direct wired to the DSC unit itself.

 

[dyezak]

Wife is back, I should be able to take the car out for a good test drive this evening and film it for you guys.

 

[dyezak]

I have a good log to review with shitty shifting into 5th and a RPM flair on throttle release:

https://datazap.me/u/dyezak/log-1523238264?log=0&data=0-11-16-17&mark=688-736

If you look between timestamps 595 and 600 you can see the 4 to 5 shift that takes a little over 1.2sec to complete. If you zoom in on it you can clearly see the clutch feathering that is occuring. This is utter shit. I don't have a WOT shift here as it was side roads with traffic, but rest assured that at WOT the thing shifts correct.

Second issue (not really an issue) is at timestamp 620.5. See that spike. If you look that is immediately after throttle release after moderate acceleration. This is actually expected, this is built into shift-logic and I remember reading about that. The M3 disengages the clutches on throttle lift to prevent abruptly changing the chassis balance. This (I think) is only supposed to occur in M mode...not D mode. This was the engineer's way of preventing the cars from shifting weight forward on throttle release so as to not produce added underdrive mid corner if you lift off the throttle. BMW made a big deal about this being a major reason the M3 feels so balanced mid-turn even if you are a ham fisted bonehead and just go from 70% throttle to 0% throttle instantly (which would upset almost any car).

My camera kept stopping all my clips at 4sec, so I have to fix that to get a video of it.

Post-conversion shift log at WOT (from a while back):

https://datazap.me/u/dyezak/log-1512056239?log=0&data=0-2

Here you can see 1st through 4th:

1st to 2nd 108.69 to 108.89 (0.2sec shift)
2nd to 3rd 110.66 to 110.77 (0.11sec shift)
3rd to 4th 112.11 to 112.20 (0.09sec shift)

To increase the resolution of the MHD logging app you remove variables logged. Here I only logged shift speeds so you can see exactly how fast these DCT's *can* shift when things go well. 0.09sec shift at WOT down to a miserable 1.2sec shift at 70% throttle.

Why is WOT great and part throttle so shitty!!!

 

[Stokes]

I noticed in my logs that the with non WOT pedal shifts, the throttle backs off considerably. Based on the log, it drops off as it's shifting and then comes back after the shift completes. It's consistent for me so far... the image is for 2->3 and then 3->4. ~5000 rpm with 90% pedal.

 

[Stokes]

Looking at my log for the D-2 test, I see a similar, but expected sluggish shift. Throttle drops as it changes, but does so with the shift, verse the one above had me thinking the logging was laggy on the throttle position verses the rpm. 50% pedal in this one.

 

[RSL]

I have a good log to review with shitty shifting into 5th and a RPM flair on throttle release:

https://datazap.me/u/dyezak/log-1523238264?log=0&data=0-11-16-17&mark=688-736

If you look between timestamps 595 and 600 you can see the 4 to 5 shift that takes a little over 1.2sec to complete. If you zoom in on it you can clearly see the clutch feathering that is occuring. This is utter shit. I don't have a WOT shift here as it was side roads with traffic, but rest assured that at WOT the thing shifts correct.

Why is WOT great and part throttle so shitty!!!

Shift is a shift, if it works properly at WOT, might take some tweaking, but should work properly at part-throttle too. The real question is tweaking what (or what might be intervening that we're not seeing).

Add torque output nm the next time you log and maybe cyl 1 actual timing. Output request will always be maxed at 510nm at heavier throttle and apparently at all throttle on your map (torque monitor factors are surely set to 1.00 everywhere). No limiters are occurring, no corrections, no load reductions, no throttle closures, etc., which is what really makes this shift thing odd. Torque output itself may be bouncing up and down like there is a reduction in play trying to pull it down (from the other logs we've seen), but haven't really see anything "active", just torque output and RPMs moving around like it's waiting for a match.

I noticed in my logs that the with non WOT pedal shifts, the throttle backs off considerably. Based on the log, it drops off as it's shifting and then comes back after the shift completes. It's consistent for me so far... the image is for 2->3 and then 3->4. ~5000 rpm with 90% pedal.

Still trying to get a handle on N55 params, but your throttle closures are almost surely from boost over target. I see it mostly occurring on part-throttle logs (pedal = torque request = boost target). At lower pedal (target), your PID has a tendency to overshoot and trip the throttle plate safety, but it occurs on WOT shifts too as boost jumps over target post-shift.

 

[aus335iguy]

It looks more and more like a deliberate strategy rather than happenstance.

The throttle off clutch decouple is a setting on the m3 DSC and I did find it before if you want to try and change that ?