Stock Turbo Love

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

Actually I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't know that your logic works (which is grounded in a cost-centric comparison). I see people all over the forums chasing misfires, timing corrections, threads all over the place on cylinder #5 etc. At only 30k miles on my motor, healthy, highly well maintained, etc ... my runners look like shit. I've had tuning issues also (with index 12s, 1 step colder plugs, stockers running 18psi, everything fresh aside intake runners). Not sure yet if this will clear it up but if you've done any reading on flow bench, rates, et cetera, I'm sure you know that a stalactite-infested cavern is not ideal for airflow. The problem is not doing walnut blasts - simply I doubt you are going to do them, say, every 20k miles (based on my experience). To do it right, you have to clean it BEFORE it becomes a problem, right? It would be nice to minimize the issue or even eliminate it. Why? I think it is one of the unattributable gremlins that plagues this car, from timing corrections to busted ring lands. It's just my 02 cents. For anyone making power, I can't see any rational that all that crap packed in certain intake runners is healthy for tuning for power...

Filippo

True, but the problem (at least in my mind) is regardless you will still have to walnut blast. The catch can will catch some of the oil but not enough that you don't have to clean the valves after a couple years or less. At the end of the day its still direct injection and the valves will still become dirty with the PVC and Catch can as I have seen with my friends car.

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

When you say catch can, are you talking low-side external PCV, head runners for PCV plugged, as well as a high side catch can setup? In other words, the complete system externalized as the head ports plugged? Just curious ...

I know this subject has been beat to death in places ... yeah I'm late to that party.

Filippo

No I mean, just a catch can and PVC. Not really talking about a double catch can setup although i wonder how that type of system does with the valves. I may be wrong but from my understanding plugged head ports with the PVC are for N54s with Upgraded turbos, high horsepower (500 or more i assume).

 

[MoreBoost]

Water methanol is your answer to longevity.

As said above heat will be the big killer. With water and meth you'll get cooler exhaust temps and happier turbos. Plus you could run less boost (lower turbine speed) to hit the same whp as with pump gas. The lower IATs make the air cooler and denser and meth requires less oxygen to burn than gasoline. Less bearing wear. Less stress on the turbos. More longevity.

 

[fmorelli]

No I mean, just a catch can and PVC. Not really talking about a double catch can setup although i wonder how that type of system does with the valves. I may be wrong but from my understanding plugged head ports with the PVC are for N54s with Upgraded turbos, high horsepower (500 or more i assume).

I'd let @Rob@RBTurbo cover that. But my car was stock turbos, 30k miles, 5-6 intake runners and valves covered in soot, 4-1 in lessening order. The direct feed are those six ports in the head which are fed by a PCV chamber in the valve cover (which is fed by the internal PCV valve) ... it feeds around #5, so 6,5,4 are worse of all six.

Water methanol is your answer to longevity.

In this regard, ethanol helps - though I have no idea what the A/B is to water methanol vis-a-vis your points.

Filippo

 

[MoreBoost]

So you would rather use JB4 for stock turbos? Mhd for aftermarket turbos?

That's not a good idea. To get the best out of these cars you need to rewrite the DME tables with a better flash or back end flash tune. BMW sells cars with efficiency and comfort targets. These go against performance. A JB4 should really be treated as a boost controller and possibly a meth controller if you use meth.
The stock dme flash is just not ideal for making power. Plus if you want anwhere like 450whp on stockers then you need to consider exotic fuels. Ethanol, methanol, race fuel etc. Those often require different AFR\lambda targets.

 

[fmorelli]

The stock dme flash is just not ideal for making power. Plus if you want anwhere like 450whp on stockers then you need to consider exotic fuels. Ethanol, methanol, race fuel etc. Those often require different AFR\lambda targets.

And Motiv's MHD'based flex fuel solution just works, and it's so easy to live with - just pump whatever you want or have available.

Filippo

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

I'd let @Rob@RBTurbo cover that. But my car was stock turbos, 30k miles, 5-6 intake runners and valves covered in soot, 4-1 in lessening order. The direct feed are those six ports in the head which are fed by a PCV chamber in the valve cover (which is fed by the internal PCV valve) ... it feeds around #5, so 6,5,4 are worse of all six.

Filippo

But that is normal for an N54. After only 10,000 miles you will see Soot and build up. There is no way around it. It is recommended by many on the forums to walnut blast every 30,000 miles. Some say even less mileage. I believe having a catch can setup will prolong the the Blast interval. But it is not curing anything, please correct me if I'm wrong! Im just trying to get the correct info. But to me it seems Catch Cans and upgraded PCVs are just supplements.

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

And Motiv's MHD'based flex fuel solution just works, and it's so easy to live with - just pump whatever you want or have available.

Filippo

I have looked at this setup for a while. I cant wait to try it out soon. I bet its so much easier than mixing and calculating your own mixture.

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

That's not a good idea. To get the best out of these cars you need to rewrite the DME tables with a better flash or back end flash tune. BMW sells cars with efficiency and comfort targets. These go against performance. A JB4 should really be treated as a boost controller and possibly a meth controller if you use meth.
The stock dme flash is just not ideal for making power. Plus if you want anwhere like 450whp on stockers then you need to consider exotic fuels. Ethanol, methanol, race fuel etc. Those often require different AFR\lambda targets.

Thanks for clearing this up. I was under the impression JB4 by itself is not that useful anymore because MHD is pretty good. I wanted to know more about the Backend Flashes and if they were worth it over just having a tuner create a custom tune (straight MHD). I love the E85 just have to drive 40 mins every time I want some lol. Hate the methanol setups. I know they are pretty good, I just hate the look of it.

 

[MoreBoost]

In this regard, ethanol helps - though I have no idea what the A/B is to water methanol vis-a-vis your points.

Filippo

Ethanol will certainly help but nothing cools as well as water in this scenario. I believe methanol cools better than ethanol but then of course in a meth injection scenario a certain percentage of fuel will still be gasoline.

Either way. Look to Ethanol\Methanol use to aid longevity.

(However remember with meth injection that if there's too much fuel going in, the DME can't retard meth flow and it'll reduce gasoline flow to the injectors)

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

Ethanol will certainly help but nothing cools as well as water in this scenario. I believe methanol cools better than ethanol but then of course in a meth injection scenario a certain percentage of fuel will still be gasoline.

Either way. Look to Ethanol\Methanol use to aid longevity.

So ethanol helps cool also? I knew Methanol did. Hmmm... might have to up my ethanol usage.

 

[matreyia]

But that is normal for an N54. After only 10,000 miles you will see Soot and build up. There is no way around it. It is recommended by many on the forums to walnut blast every 30,000 miles. Some say even less mileage. I believe having a catch can setup will prolong the the Blast interval. But it is not curing anything, please correct me if I'm wrong! Im just trying to get the correct info. But to me it seems Catch Cans and upgraded PCVs are just supplements.

I do blasting once a year. And I have occ too. It still gets dirty with occ. Once I did a 6 month inspection and that showed me that annual blasting was the interval I should pursue. May be different on other cars.

 

[MoreBoost]

So ethanol helps cool also? I knew Methanol did. Hmmm... might have to up my ethanol usage.

Ethanol and Methanol certainly lower intake temps. Meth is often mixed with water and the Meth burning produces alot of water compared to gasoline due to it being a simple CH3OH molecule. That takes out alot of heat from the engine.

As ethanol also contains less Carbon atoms than gasoline I suspect it also produces cooler exhaust temps. But I'm not 100% sure on that.

However as ethanol and methanol require less air to combust the turbos will not have to work as hard to achieve the same power as just gasoline will.
Methanol and ethanol each carry some oxygen with them.

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

I do blasting once a year. And I have occ too. It still gets dirty with occ. Once I did a 6 month inspection and that showed me that annual blasting was the interval I should pursue. May be different on other cars.

Hmmm.... so the OCC doesn't help much is what you are saying?

 

[fmorelli]

I do blasting once a year. And I have occ too. It still gets dirty with occ. Once I did a 6 month inspection and that showed me that annual blasting was the interval I should pursue. May be different on other cars.

By OCC I assume you mean on the high-side. The low side is where the crux of the issue lies, especially with the six PCV ports in the head. If you are that diligent with your blasting, you may wish to consider looking at the low-side external PCV, plugged port solution.

Filippo

 

[Silver_Sur4r_N54]

By OCC I assume you mean on the high-side. The low side is where the crux of the issue lies, especially with the six PCV ports in the head. If you are that diligent with your blasting, you may wish to consider looking at the low-side external PCV, plugged port solution.

Filippo

If you don't mind me asking, when did you install the low side OCC system? Have you seen your Valves since? I ask because if a double OCC system does really help I will go that route. But in my opinion if having a double OCC system still requires blasting after 30,000 miles its not really worth it to me.

 

[fmorelli]

If you don't mind me asking, when did you install the low side OCC system? Have you seen your Valves since? I ask because if a double OCC system does really help I will go that route. But in my opinion if having a double OCC system still requires blasting after 30,000 miles its not really worth it to me.

I did my high side OCC @ 23k. Just did my low side.

If one looks on the inside of one's valve cover, the internal PCV releases air carrying oil vapor, which is then fed through a channel that feeds the top side of each aluminum intake runner. And the PCV oil vapor route begins at #5, with #4 and #6 next closest, then #3,2,1. Inspectiing the runners, one can guess which ones are dirtiest - they correspond with the PCV feed order. It's pretty physically obvious when inspected, along with the corresponding soot, exactly what's going on.

I don't believe this setup has been out for a long time (you'd have to scan other forums). I would love to hear feedback from people that have PLUGGED the low-side system and externalized the PCV for 50-60k miles. Do we know anyone?

Filippo

 

[matreyia]

By OCC I assume you mean on the high-side. The low side is where the crux of the issue lies, especially with the six PCV ports in the head. If you are that diligent with your blasting, you may wish to consider looking at the low-side external PCV, plugged port solution.

Filippo

I only have the OCC that Burger Tuning sells. If that is the high side, then that's it. I have no idea what anyone means when they say "high" or "low" side. If you have two, high and low, I would like to know how you did it and I will attempt to do the same. What parts, where to order, how to install etc... if you can take pics that would help. I can make a video to post here when I do it.

 

[matreyia]

Hmmm.... so the OCC doesn't help much is what you are saying?

I don't know if it helps. I know that it does have oil in it after a few months and that is oil that is NOT in the intake valves. I know that it does not solve the dirty intake valves issue and I still have to blast every year.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

I did my high side OCC @ 23k. Just did my low side.

If one looks on the inside of one's valve cover, the internal PCV releases air carrying oil vapor, which is then fed through a channel that feeds the top side of each aluminum intake runner. And the PCV oil vapor route begins at #5, with #4 and #6 next closest, then #3,2,1. Inspectiing the runners, one can guess which ones are dirtiest - they correspond with the PCV feed order. It's pretty physically obvious when inspected, along with the corresponding soot, exactly what's going on.

I don't believe this setup has been out for a long time (you'd have to scan other forums). I would love to hear feedback from people that have PLUGGED the low-side system and externalized the PCV for 50-60k miles. Do we know anyone?

Filippo

Filippo has a great grip on the scenario, as noted by the above. It is always great to see one go through the entire process, and build the understanding like he has so thank you for that.

These are things you'd want to do if you wish to mitigate buildup, as the process of going external PCV (when equipped with the low side OCC) will literally catch all the crud otherwise that would've otherwise passed through the PCV valve and into the intake tract. This however is not a guarantee for ever cleanly valves, as there ARE other variables (ie. turbos that are pushing oil, cam overlap, etc)- but it is a sure fire way to catch the heavy contaminates that are otherwise passed through the PCV valve itself rather than letting them through to build up on the valves.

FWIW we have been selling these external pcv kits for just at 3 years now- and most all of the feedback has been terrific and the majority of it has been relief from valves that tend to stay cleaner for longer. Getting away from the internal valve cover vacuum reference channels and affiliated vulnerabilities in the valve cover (and gasket) in the process is also a good way to bullet proof the system for more sound functionality and for ease of future servicing (as needed) as well.

You can do a lot more reading on it here (including some feedback from some users later in the thread):
https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35535

Rob