Ad: Spool Helix HPFP overdrive Kit

[martymil]

Dampening the vibration doesn't remove it and now your transferring than vibration into the block.

Loosing assistance to the brakes could be the difference between avoiding an accident or having one, hurting or killing someone involved.

If you want to drive with a substandard product, your choice but don't try and justify that's its ok as it does not fix the root of the issue.

 

[The Convert]

What do you mean?? And the others that commented before you. What background you need if you can hold the unit and feel a crazy vibration without any bracket, then install the bracket and hold it again and not feel the vibration??? What more do you need!!! It doesn't remove the breaks too it just takes the brake assistance. Ask @darkknighte92 he has a helix from months back before the billet plate. Still got the metal plate and no brackets. Runs 10s.

I’m going to address each of your questions/statements one at a time. I’m also not trying to shit on you, but help educate you. So, please ask more questions for us to answer for you.

1. putting your hand on the gear housing and feeling vibration without the bracket, then not feeling the vibration with the bracket does not mean that the cause of the vibration is gone. It just means that vibration is no longer acting on the assembly alone. It is being damped by the bracket and the block now. Will this keep the housing from cracking and failing moving forward? It might, but it also might not. What it won’t do though, is fix the root of the vibration, and now that it is just being transferred/damped, it may cause other failures instead. That’s why everyone who is preaching caution keeps repeating that the root cause assessment needs to be done and a proper fix implemented.

2. As Marty said, the brake assist could easily make the difference between being able to stop before causing an accident...an accident that could cause the driver, passenger(s), or occupants of the other vehicle(s) to be killed. Can you live with killing or maming someone because you just wanted to be “running 10s”?

3. One person having success does not mean a product is good. I urge you to google and read about the requirements for “six sigma”.

4. the speed of someone’s car in a quarter mile has zero, I repeat zero, implication on whether or not that product is a quality product. We all know the pump provides enough fuel for loads of power, but that is not the issue here. If people were complaining that their pumps were maxing out at low levels, and they had the rest of the supporting mods in place, then it would be a different story, but it’s not...so, it’s not.
Hope all of this helps, and please ask more questions before making a bad and dangerous decision.

 

[NoQuarter]

Here is an analogy that many can understand I hope:

Say you have a bent wheel that is causing the front end of the car to vibrate like crazy. One solution is to start clamping a bunch of weights to it all over the place to reduce the virbrations as much as you can. Even if it feels OK, you still have a bent wheel - maybe even a cracked wheel. And a bunch of weights being rotated around, and more likelihood one or more can come off, and maybe the wheel cracks further.

A better solution is to fix the root cause by repairing the wheel so it as balanced as can be expected, then attach the tire in such a way that it balances the assembly even further, then finally attach a small weight in the just the right spot to make it perfect.

 

[JohnDaviz]

What do you mean?? And the others that commented before you.

On top of the you may read my comment where i try to explain it with my understanding of the situation.

Ad: - Spool Helix HPFP overdrive Kit

Seems like the VTT single barrel shotgun is still the best move if you want to stay DI only. VTT shotgun has been revised multiple times and didn't officially launch on their website until like last year. I give credit to them for the shotguns development and sticking with it, but, it was not...

www.spoolstreet.com

What really bothers me though. Why is SpoolPerformance silent on this? Checking the profile one can see online activity on the account.
Why is nobody from Spool reacting to our concerns?
Wouldn´t it be easy from them to counter proof that we are wrong?
Shouldn´t it be easy for them to show us that we are wrong about the bracket?

 

[NoQuarter]

On top of the you may read my comment where i try to explain it with my understanding of the situation.

Ad: - Spool Helix HPFP overdrive Kit

Seems like the VTT single barrel shotgun is still the best move if you want to stay DI only. VTT shotgun has been revised multiple times and didn't officially launch on their website until like last year. I give credit to them for the shotguns development and sticking with it, but, it was not...

www.spoolstreet.com

What really bothers me though. Why is SpoolPerformance silent on this? Checking the profile one can see online activity on the account.
Why is nobody from Spool reacting to our concerns?
Wouldn´t it be easy from them to counter proof that we are wrong?
Shouldn´t it be easy for them to show us that we are wrong about the bracket?

Well... they only have 11 posts on the entire forum. Not exactly reaching out to anyone here for this product.

 

[JohnDaviz]

Well... they only have 11 posts on the entire forum. Not exactly reaching out to anyone here for this product.

Sadly you are right. Doing a bit of advertising but not communicating with their customers. Sounds like innovative customer orientated business.

 

[MoistNapkin]

@reflectionzn54 Look man, it's not that we're all here bashing the product, and I know you already know that. We ARE however concerned (somewhat) for each others safety. Sometimes using statistical values hold no water when it comes to health/safety.

When 5 people report food posioning off a grocery store item, they dont say, oh it only happened to a few people." The store completely removes the product until a safe shipment is available. Not continue selling a potentially harmful product to the community.

 

[JohnDaviz]

Aren´t there possibilities in the US to complain about the company and that it willingly risks consumers health for profit reasons? Like an FTC complaint?

In germany we have the Consumerprotection. It is a non-profit organization that takes care of fraudulent behavior against consumers.

This way the company would be forced to react to the accusations.

 

[yuli8466]

guys, you can choose vtt shotgun, you can remove the active steering... that's what i am trying to do again... i have been waiting for the solution like spool helix for years... but sadly, i hear this problem. if only 2 options : helix od vs PI, i will choose PI now. i dont want loose braking assistance while high RPM and high boost. it sounds bad you are flying in the highway without brake

 

[fmorelli]

We are still working on the retrofit of the S55 dual HPFP setup - it's a hobby project, no one hold their breath. That said, in the fall I was planning to see how the Helix played out (it looked promising) and purchase one mid-late winter as part of my engine upgrades. This is no longer the case, unfortunately.

For me, honestly, this is a personal lesson of Internet diagnosis. When I read the first reports of cracks, I assumed a long reciprocating assembly with some inherent minor vibration which, at high and sustained frequency would present in a casting weakness. I suggested a bracket. Yet reports that have been surfacing now seem to indicate that the vibration is far more grave than earlier Internet reads. Not only did I not observe it first-hand, but I also assumed given Spool's work and the beta (alpha?) tests in the field that significant vibrations would have been observed and dealt with. Who knows ... again I go back to the personal lesson of Internet diagnosis. So until I see a product working properly, with consistency (e.g.; my Motiv Flexfuel) I won't be taking this risk - which as @martymil originally pointed out - is a significant risk.

There have been some comments on balancing internal assemblies. It's always good to be internally balanced - whether this whole assembly has the issue in current configuration, or just the Helix aspect, I have no idea. I will say that weights and brackets are used all the time to manage less than perfect balancing. But this is an engineering problem at this point, and not a trivial one by my observation.

I hope Spool solves the problem. I like the product concept, from a packaging and installation perspective. Also, the more product development that is successful on the platform - well, a high tide raises all boats.

Filippo

 

[JohnDaviz]

whether this whole assembly has the issue in current configuration, or just the Helix aspect, I have no idea. I will say that weights and brackets are used all the time to manage less than perfect balancing. But this is an engineering problem at this point, and not a trivial one by my observation.

i work as a development engineer and balancing involves my component (e-motor) as a part assembly of an electrical scroll climate compressor for cars.

So talking about balancing a component, a part system and the full rotating assembly. Actually balancing is complex but not difficult as long as you are not pumping fluid or gas through a scroll

A mechanical Engineer should have the skills to calculate through the system. An experienced mechanical engineer will do that pretty quick.

Just imaging every component as a balancing plane. Very easy with gears. Each and every component has a resulting vector pointing into one direction with a certain length. This is the grams of imbalance times the distance from the center. 1g * 10mm = 10gmm imbalance 10 mill from the center.

If the component are positioned axially from each other you take this into consideration also a radial gap.

Now what you do is to check the imbalance of the HPFP and put it into your equation. There might be of course the target that there is no imbalance in the HPFP which is completely unrealistic due to manufacturing tolerances. And i doubt that the HPFP is active balanced during and after assembly.

You have to counter balance the resulting imbalance from the HPFP (if existend) in your helix pumpt then of course. The Helix and the HPFP have both their own static and dynamic imbalances. They can eliminate each other or add up.

If their is only ONE position of interface of the Helix for attaching to the HPFP than chances are that they did counter balance the HPFP.

If you can rotate your helix as you want before attaching it randomly to your HPFP you start gambling! In EVERY case you are manipulating the resulting imbalance of the system.

A) Counter balancing - Good
B) Staying same with vector pointing into another direction - No Change of the system
C) You are adding imbalance - Very Very bad especially if the system now got longer

I hope you can follow a bit of my words.

 

[iminhell1]

Aren´t there possibilities in the US to complain about the company and that it willingly risks consumers health for profit reasons? Like an FTC complaint?

In germany we have the Consumerprotection. It is a non-profit organization that takes care of fraudulent behavior against consumers.

This way the company would be forced to react to the accusations.

In this case, no.
This is a part designed for off-road use. They make that claim because of the federal Emissions laws which say something to the effect of not being legally able to alter the way the fuel system works, and that includes adding volume of flow to it.
Essentially, if they claim off-road Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards don't apply and they can do what they want, safety is out the window.

Ethically though ....

 

[Traf]

What turbo, boost, and fuel are you running?

Hydra HP800 @ roughly 21psi (still tunning) on straight E85

 

[Glassreflectionzn54]

i work as a development engineer and balancing involves my component (e-motor) as a part assembly of an electrical scroll climate compressor for cars.

So talking about balancing a component, a part system and the full rotating assembly. Actually balancing is complex but not difficult as long as you are not pumping fluid or gas through a scroll

A mechanical Engineer should have the skills to calculate through the system. An experienced mechanical engineer will do that pretty quick.

Just imaging every component as a balancing plane. Very easy with gears. Each and every component has a resulting vector pointing into one direction with a certain length. This is the grams of imbalance times the distance from the center. 1g * 10mm = 10gmm imbalance 10 mill from the center.

If the component are positioned from axially from each other you take this into consideration also as a radial gap.

Now what you do is to check the imbalance of the HPFP and put it into your equation. There might be of course the target that there is no imbalance in the HPFP which is completely unrealistic due to manufacturing tolerances. And i doubt that the HPFP is active balanced during and after assembly.

You have to counter balance the resulting imbalance from the HPFP (if existend). The Helix and the HPFP have both their own static and dynamic imbalances. They can eliminate each other or add up.

If their is only ONE position of interface of the Helix for attaching to the HPFP than chances are that they did counter balance the HPFP.

If you can rotate your helix as you want before attaching it randomly to your HPFP you start gambling! In EVERY case you are manipulating the resulting imbalance of the system.

A) Counter balancing - Good
B) Staying same with vector pointing into another direction - No Change of the system
C) You are adding imbalance - Very Very bad especially if the system now got longer

I hope you can follow a bit of my words.

it's much longer plus both the hpfp and the helix rotate so fast they make A LOT of vibration. The hpfp maybe makes the vibration worse ?

 

[The Convert]

Yeah I think it is balanced just when it's much longer plus both the hpfp and the helix rotate so fast they make A LOT of vibration.

If they are balanced, then they will not vibrate. The out of balance is what makes it vibrate. You really need to listen more than try to explain, especially when they guy you’re responding to is an engineer that deals with balancing complex components and sub systems.

 

[Glassreflectionzn54]

W

If they are balanced, then they will not vibrate. The out of balance is what makes it vibrate. You really need to listen more than try to explain, especially when they guy you’re responding to is an engineer that deals with balancing complex components and sub systems.

I understood that the guy said that it might if even balanced but because of so much attached weight and In addition the hpfp rotates as well on top of all the vibration? Hopefully it will all work out

 

[The Convert]

W

I understood that the guy said that it might if even balanced but because of so much attached weight and In addition the hpfp rotates as well on top of all the vibration? Hopefully it will all work out

I think we all hope it will work out and the problem fixed. I know more of us than not would prefer to stick to di only.

 

[JohnDaviz]

W

I understood that the guy said that it might if even balanced but because of so much attached weight and In addition the hpfp rotates as well on top of all the vibration? Hopefully it will all work out

That is not what i said.

Something that is balanced to 0 has no vibration.
Everything over 0 has an imbalance.

If you put two parts together via a shaft e.g. you have an imbalance on the left and one on the right.

These two imbalances are adding up to a resulting imbalance. This can be a tolerable imbalance or even zero.
But zero is unlikely. Very very unlikely.

The issue does not start with some imbalance. It could be perfectly fine. The issue starts when the imbalance reaches a value where it influences the lifetime function of itself or other parts.

At this point i would stick to VTTs solution the time being if necessary in my build.

Still hoping for better solutions than the vibration devil. (I know they wanted to bring a solution and help the community. But do it right pls.)

 

[MoistNapkin]

I MIGHT.. "might" run mine with the new bracket. Most the of the failures that I've seen are at the top of the vac housing, or on the stock vac plate at the mounting tabs. As a few others have mentioned, it seems like the excessive vibration in combination with the extra weight is causing the failures. Lmao... lets all whip out the dynamat and wrap the vac housing?

 

[Bnks334]

In this case, no.
This is a part designed for off-road use. They make that claim because of the federal Emissions laws which say something to the effect of not being legally able to alter the way the fuel system works, and that includes adding volume of flow to it.
Essentially, if they claim off-road Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards don't apply and they can do what they want, safety is out the window.

Ethically though....

I am no legal expert, but Federal Emissions Law has nothing to do with negligence and product safety. As I understand it, a disclaimer does not resolve you of all liability over a product.

People need to stop pretending like this is just 1 failure and flaw. It's an underlying issue that we are seeing being moved from one weak link to the next. Recognize that. Making excuses doesn't help anyone. I would hope they address this directly on their product page until a true solution is found. Maybe recall on-hand inventories from 3rd party sellers. Reality is they will likely continue to sell on-hand inventory. Not likely they have the margin to absorb recalling a new product. Hopefully the bracket is a long-term solution for first adopters. Hopefully they go back to square one with the drive gears to work out a real solution in later revisions. I know I want an overdrive, eventually.

The other unknowns are the tuning. That could be the underlying issue for all we know. I am sure the rail side of things influences the stress on the over-drive.