New HPFP Upgrade - SpoolPerformance Helix

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

This is great if Helix confirmed 4:1, this will be fun. Pull up a chair, and watch these pumps destroy themselves at 18,000RPM. We were told 3X directly from two people testing them, I guess that was fake news. Remember that thing about doing this 5 years ago, it means we forgot more data from testing than Helix has done. Someone go ahead and dig up the first prototype pictures on BB. Let me know what you see what's different compared to now. Nothing is done for no reason. Multiple pulley sizes were tested and retested, IE we know what works. Here we have another company that is assigning to the theory of bigger (faster) must be better. What could go wrong? You see the huge batch of gearboxes they already have done. My guess is it's not going to be cost-effective to remake those gear ratios... 4:1 it is, bring on the popcorn.

Chris

 

[Bnks334]

This is great if Helix confirmed 4:1, this will be fun. Pull up a chair, and watch these pumps destroy themselves at 18,000RPM. We were told 3X directly from two people testing them, I guess that was fake news. Remember that thing about doing this 5 years ago, it means we forgot more data from testing than Helix has done. Someone go ahead and dig up the first prototype pictures on BB. Let me know what you see what's different compared to now. Nothing is done for no reason. Multiple pulley sizes were tested and retested, IE we know what works. Here we have another company that is assigning to the theory of bigger (faster) must be better. What could go wrong? You see the huge batch of gearboxes they already have done. My guess is it's not going to be cost-effective to remake those gear ratios... 4:1 it is, bring on the popcorn.

Chris

Knowing the actual product specs leans me back toward favoring the shotgun for my application (see how providing product specs works?). Unless spool has plans to offer multiple differently geared solutions... This new product is more in-line with the performance of the double shotgun but would be doing it by stressing an already failure prone pump.

 

[SJ_1989]

We were told 3X directly from two people testing them, I guess that was fake news.

Would you know how these two individuals determined it's 3X? From disassembling the unit and counting the teeth or from data collection? If data collection then they either measured the speed or used a flow meter and they know pump displacement. Those are the only ways to know how fast the HPFP is spinning.

 

[impuls]

Would you know how these two individuals determined it's 3X?

Not install, make one turn on input side, count turns on output side, problem solved.

 

[SJ_1989]

Not install, make one turn on input side, count turns on output side, problem solved.

Yea, sure fair enough. I was quick to reply. I was mainly poking to see if it was someone actually looking at it in detail or a Tuner just saying "3x" more. So 3 ways lol.

 

[fmorelli]

Not install, make one turn on input side, count turns on output side, problem solved.

Maybe they spun the opposite side and counted the wrong side

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Unless spool has plans to offer multiple differently geared solutions...

This would be a great idea to provide a couple/few overdrive options for those looking for only a certain power target to minimize the potential for HPFP reliability issues. Surely it is not a case of the more overdrive the better, there is always going to be a trade off.

 

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Would you know how these two individuals determined it's 3X? From disassembling the unit and counting the teeth or from data collection? If data collection then they either measured the speed or used a flow meter and they know pump displacement. Those are the only ways to know how fast the HPFP is spinning.

No idea, maybe you should ask him, you know him well. He is the one who told Tony along with another well-known tuner, we are not going to name either, but we have a lot of respect in this industry, these people have used our products for years. They have no problem sharing information with us. They 100% told us it was a 3X overdrive, if spool is saying 4X then they lied to the people doing their testing. Either way, let's see how they do. We will bow out of the thread, and wait for results. Its been fun gentlemen.

Chris

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

No idea, maybe you should ask him, you know him well. He is the one who told Tony along with another well-known tuner, we are not going to name either, but we have a lot of respect in this industry, these people have used our products for years. They have no problem sharing information with me. They 100% told me it was a 3X overdrive, if spool is saying 4X then they lied to the people doing their testing. Either way, let's see how they do. We will bow out of the thread, and wait for results. Its been fun gentlemen.

Chris

Prior to bowing out can you at least address post #125?

New HPFP Upgrade - SpoolPerformance Helix

I suggest you do a little bit of research. I know it's hard for people to wrap their heads around that we did this 5 years ago, but that's the case. If you look up our original testing, we have charts, graphs, logs, dynos, you name it, we did it, and we shared it. We just did it so far ahead of...

bmw.spoolstreet.com

If truly has been perfection then spool is going to have a large uphill battle on the reliability front...

Thanks,
Rob

 

[SJ_1989]

No idea, maybe you should ask him, you know him well.

Curious if you knew is all. Thanks

 

[kayzrx82]

Theres a big difference between the pump internals and a planetary gear setup, they usually get quite hot and no matter how good the oil or grease is they break down.

The pump is also internally cooled by the fuel that runs through it.

Drive shafts are quite different as they are a bearing and not gears.

Not saying it will fail just interested how they or who ever designed the system tackled the issue, its not as straight forward as you might think.

We'll see a year or less from now

 

[Rob09msport]

I think 4 was thrown around way too much and made no sense or it was misleading. 3 still seems far fetched until explained better. 3x flow I would think would require more than 3x speed vs stock. If 3x Is simply in relation to engine speed or sonething then once again is abstract unless put into context with equivalent specs of stock unit being posted as well.

 

[rac]

I did this a year and a half ago and added the HPFP VCV control tables to increase duty cycle which is what allowed E50 DI only on N55 E series. The DME does not command 100% duty on a stock tune but 100% flow != 100% duty.

Thanks, yeah I can appreciate the last statement. Hopefully the valve doesn't bottle neck the additional capacity from faster pump rotation in this spool version.

 

[martymil]

We'll see a year or less from now

I voiced my concerns, just going to sit back and wait. I truly hope something works out of this because the xi platform needs a solution

I know those pumps won't survive those kind of speeds but how long is the big question.

 

[kayzrx82]

I voiced my concerns, just going to sit back and wait. I truly hope something works out of this because the xi platform needs a solution

I know those pumps won't survive those kind of speeds but how long is the big question.

Im with you on the speed. As i said before the life of the pump is rpm dependent. If you drive in the lower rev range it may last but this thing spinning at that high of an rpm will decrease the life. They are a sliding wobble plate piston pump with very little cooling of the lubricating oil. Not to mention the oil isn't changed ever. I've never seen a hydraulic pump of that style at those rpms. Time will tell.

 

[Sbrach]

They aren't a piston pump. They are a bellows pump.

 

[fmorelli]

If the pump innards self destruct on the N54, what does it take out?

Filippo

 

[kayzrx82]

They aren't a piston pump. They are a bellows pump.

They are a piston pumps hydraulically coupled to a bellow. The bellow is used to separate the fuel from the oil that is compressed by the pistons.

 

[Sbrach]

The piston just expands the bellows. Compared to a piston pump like on an F series or the majority of other DI cars where an actual piston compresses fuel directly.

 

[kayzrx82]

If the pump innards self destruct on the N54, what does it take out?

Filippo

Depends on the failure. I have not seen one personally that physically locked. I have seen them rip the bellows, the solenoid burn out, the bearing on the shaft wears out or the pistons wears so bad it can no longer form a seal to pump the oil. But there is a possibility of other failure modes once you start increasing rpm.