MasterC17 - E46 M3 Track Car - Part 2 (With N54)

[Aaron]

I just don't get why you wouldn't do coils at the same time. They're a known failure point, coils have been shown to give significant power increases (Although less so on your build as it's a bit more conservative), and they are a huge safety item as they curb misfires and associated knocks. I'm partial to PR, but whether it's PR or BL it is the best $400 you can spend.

Secondly, I'd make sure you get the aluminum outlets. Even on street duty I've had multiple failures on the silicone pieces, and finally swapped to aluminum ones myself. I threw away an entire $150 track day when my silicone charge pipe let go on the 2nd lap.

 

[sirdaft1]

Concerns with longevity? I know you went ST for your build right?

It is a longevity thing unfortunately. Upgraded twins may work for a few straight line multi gear pulls with plenty of cool down in between. But no one in this space has had interest in developing a truly motorsports driven and reliable twin setup. And that’s fine, it may be too niche of a market at this point. So that leaves ST as the only real setup to go with since you can run Garrett or BW turbos which are the benchmarks in the motorsports world.

 

[sirdaft1]

I just don't get why you wouldn't do coils at the same time. They're a known failure point, coils have been shown to give significant power increases (Although less so on your build as it's a bit more conservative), and they are a huge safety item as they curb misfires and associated knocks. I'm partial to PR, but whether it's PR or BL it is the best $400 you can spend.

Secondly, I'd make sure you get the aluminum outlets. Even on street duty I've had multiple failures on the silicone pieces, and finally swapped to aluminum ones myself. I threw away an entire $150 track day when my silicone charge pipe let go on the 2nd lap.

@MasterC17 I didn’t even see that you run silicone outlets as well. Those will likely blow within a lap or two around a track. (I know from experience and mine were installed correctly).

 

[Arhoads335i]

Your GC turbos will be fine! Sounds like the baffled oil pan will help out with the g forces and your cooling is under control. Definitely go with aluminum outlets though.

 

[sirdaft1]

Your GC turbos will be fine! Sounds like the baffled oil pan will help out with the g forces and your cooling is under control. Definitely go with aluminum outlets though.

**facepalm**

Unfortunately there are quite a few of us whom have driven aftermarket twins on on the road course and have had nothing but issues. One of the most respected and known 335i road course racers I know ran 3 different sets of VTT turbos, all of which blew on track. And it’s not a surprise as to why. The internals are not upgraded to handle the added load let alone back to back to back WOT pulls. And they lack the water cooling that is used in motorsports applications.

So while we do wish the best (seriously!), unfortunately aftermarket twins were never developed with motorsports in mind.

 

[Aaron]

GC's aren't water cooled? Maybe check your facts.

 

[N54QC]

GC's aren't water cooled? Maybe check your facts.

I could be reading it wrong but I think he was saying it as the water cooling wasn't sufficient for the abuse, not saying they didn't have any cooling.

 

[sirdaft1]

GC's aren't water cooled? Maybe check your facts.

I could be reading it wrong but I think he was saying it as the water cooling wasn't sufficient for the abuse, not saying they didn't have any cooling.

Correct. ^^^

The point was simply to say that stock frame turbos and their internals weren’t designed around withstanding high boost motorsports level abuse. And a number of us have had issues when used in that capacity. I’ve offered this before and there were crickets... but if a company wanted to step into the upgraded twins for motorsports use, I would be glad to assist in the development.

 

[MasterC17]

I made a typo - I did order aluminum outlets not silicone ones for that exact reason.

I am aware that the turbos will be stressed on the road course. I am working on a solution and will share more details as I progress. I make no guarantees, but it should help significantly.

 

[sirdaft1]

I made a typo - I did order aluminum outlets not silicone ones for that exact reason.

I am aware that the turbos will be stressed on the road course. I am working on a solution and will share more details as I progress. I make no guarantees, but it should help significantly.

Awesome. And sorry I don’t mean to thread crap! I love this project and I’m pumped to have more roadcourse built N54’s on track

Also curious to hear your experience with the shotgun fueling setup on track.

 

[fmorelli]

Awesome. And sorry I don’t mean to thread crap! I love this project and I’m pumped to have more roadcourse built N54’s on track

Ditto. Road course requirements are pretty different ... so this is great to see.

One thing I'm wondering about is how the E46 rear geometry will handle this kind of horsepower. I'm running an E89 Z4 which is the only post-E46 running E46 rear suspension (and of course, the N54).

Filippo

 

[MasterC17]

Awesome. And sorry I don’t mean to thread crap! I love this project and I’m pumped to have more roadcourse built N54’s on track

Also curious to hear your experience with the shotgun fueling setup on track.

No worries, I would rather have critical feedback that prevents future problems than turn a blind-eye to it. The more input and expertise the community shares the better it is for everyone!

I decided to run the Shotgun setup because it retains DME Injector Control. The idea of fuel-dumping through Port Injection was not one I loved. It will be interesting to see how it holds up though.

Ditto. Road course requirements are pretty different ... so this is great to see.

One thing I'm wondering about is how the E46 rear geometry will handle this kind of horsepower. I'm running an E89 Z4 which is the only post-E46 running E46 rear suspension (and of course, the N54).

Filippo

The differential is being rebuilt by DiffsOnline, so I am not worried in that regard. The axles and driveshaft should be fine as this is not going to be a drag car. The rear subframe has been reinforced and is tied into the roll cage, and basically every component of the rear suspension has been modified/replaced/upgraded. The shocks and springs are more than up to task of keeping the suspension where it needs to be. The car easily handled 330whp, and I don't expect problems at 600whp - but again - we shall see!

 

[sirdaft1]

I decided to run the Shotgun setup because it retains DME Injector Control. The idea of fuel-dumping through Port Injection was not one I loved. It will be interesting to see how it holds up though.

Which is particularly important if you plan to retain traction control (which is a big deal IMO). We're at this fueling crossroads with our build right now. We've found that if running above the max HPFP limits the options for fueling at this moment are:
1) Run PI but lose Traction Control (otherwise possible ultra-lean conditions when TCS kicks in)
2) Run standalone and keep TCS (read: $$$$)
3) Run a shotgun setup and keep TCS (best bang for your buck, but undetermined reliability/longevity in a road course environment)

 

[MasterC17]

Which is particularly important if you plan to retain traction control (which is a big deal IMO). We're at this fueling crossroads with our build right now. We've found that if running above the max HPFP limits the options for fueling at this moment are:
1) Run PI but lose Traction Control (otherwise possible ultra-lean conditions when TCS kicks in)
2) Run standalone and keep TCS (read: $$$$)
3) Run a shotgun setup and keep TCS (best bang for your buck, but undetermined reliability/longevity in a road course environment)

Out of curiosity, why would you want to retain traction control? ABS - absolutely, and I will be keeping it for my build, but traction control is just intrusive (IMO).

Standalone is a bad idea unless you have unlimited funding. My experience with standalone has been that it is very expensive and creates more problems than it solves. I love stock DME's haha!

What horsepower level are you shooting for?

I am hoping I can run close to 600whp on straight E85 with just the Shotgun and a Stage 2 LPFP. The real question will be, for how long?

 

[sirdaft1]

Out of curiosity, why would you want to retain traction control? ABS - absolutely, and I will be keeping it for my build, but traction control is just intrusive (IMO).

Standalone is a bad idea unless you have unlimited funding. My experience with standalone has been that it is very expensive and creates more problems than it solves. I love stock DME's haha!

What horsepower level are you shooting for?

I am hoping I can run close to 600whp on straight E85 with just the Shotgun and a Stage 2 LPFP. The real question will be, for how long?

That is the question! Half tempted to try that setup as well for fueling. Our goals will be to run in the same ballpark with power, around 575whp.

Why TCS? Rain/wet conditions. As much as I would prefer to run in the dry, it tends to be a roll of the dice here in the midwest. These past few years about 1/2 of my days on track were in the wet. As much as I'd like to think that I'm a Senna in the wet, TCS is extra insurance worth having to avoid turning an expensive racecar into an oversized paperweight!

 

[MasterC17]

That is the question! Half tempted to try that setup as well for fueling. Our goals will be to run in the same ballpark with power, around 575whp.

Why TCS? Rain/wet conditions. As much as I would prefer to run in the dry, it tends to be a roll of the dice here in the midwest. These past few years about 1/2 of my days on track were in the wet. As much as I'd like to think that I'm a Senna in the wet, TCS is extra insurance worth having to avoid turning an expensive racecar into an oversized paperweight!

That is some sound reasoning, something I hadn't considered to be honest. Fortunately, retaining TCS with the MK60 is super easy!

 

[Torgus]

Nice car and nice build.

I agree with what was said above. Ditch those turbos and get a single. Only proven Motorsports solution on this platform.

 

[MasterC17]

For this build I am going to be sticking with the twin's. I have a couple "tricks" up my sleeve that should help extended the life and durability of them. Nonetheless, if it turns out they keep blowing and I can't make them reliable, I will switch to a single, but I feel that I need to give the twin's the chance they deserve. I will be working closely with Tony on this project and am confident we can make this work.

Additionally, one of the main draws of the twins for me is the power curve. See the attached graphs. You can see the GC Lite makes about 500whp and 600wtq at 4,000RPM. The DOCRace kit makes about 300whp and 400wtq. The GC Lite has a linear, nearly flat curve from 4000-6,700rpm. The DOCRace is not even close to flat. For Road-Course use, Single Turbo is going to result in very poor driving dynamics and make it hard to control.

That's why I am sticking with the twin turbo setup.

 

[Torgus]

I can show you a show you a single dyno that makes 600 tq at 4k fwiw. You just need the right sized turbo for your application and a tuner who knows what they are doing and what the customer wants imo.

Why not go for the full stage 3 twin turbos from vtt vs. The Chinese twins if you are stuck on vtt and twins?

 

[MasterC17]

I can show you a show you a single dyno that makes 600 tq at 4k fwiw. You just need the right sized turbo for your application and a tuner who knows what they are doing and what the customer wants imo.

Why not go for the full stage 3 twin turbos from vtt vs. The Chinese twins if you are stuck on vtt and twins?

I mean other than the $5,700 price difference - nothing lol