E85 Lubricity Additives

[fmorelli]

That extensive of repair sounds like someone filled with gasoline. Diesel is more oily than gas. If you put gas in diesel it'll kill pumps ... mostly because of a the changes in seals/bearings.
I can't see that $14k being to blame on the diesel itself.

Diesel in gas isn't as bad FWIW. but don't do it.


But, some of the new bio-diesel's have problems with algae growth. That black slime that will clog filters and such.

I suppose that was possible before I owned the car, but there have been quite a number of high pressure fuel pump failures that have become notorious in the USA with the Bosch cp4 pumps. In the USA they are nicknamed the time bomb - they are found in modern Powerstrokes, Cummins, and big diesel Audi, etc.

That said BMW covered the complete repair under warranty and I am quite certain they didn't spend $14,000 without checking if there were signs of gas in the fuel system.

The quality of diesel fuel in the US has been blamed for these issues to a fair degree. I do know that the BMW setup wasn't designed for E85. I have gone to a walbro low pressure fuel pump that is E85 friendly. Can't say that for the hpfp. It's a "just don't know" kind of thing coupled with the reality that HPFP's can self destruct, and the cost is significant, and fuel can certainly be a factor. From what I've understood, there is more water in ethanol and less general lubricity. Hence the question...

Filippo

 

[martymil]

A ford focus engine is not a bmw engine so lets compare apples to apples.

Our di injectors do not like e85 being left in them for long periods of time and neither do our hpfp pumps.

No one is telling anyone what to use or not to but beware there are consequences that come with e85 use.

With flex fuel here now and easily reverted back to 93 with just a quick fill up for the winter time why would anyone risk it.

I run 93 personally because it makes enough power on street tyres to want to kill you at every turn and e85 for the track on semi slicks for the times i want to have some develish fun.

I also get double the distance on 93 than e85 and crusing on e85 is just plain silly

Adding an addative that costs a measly 5 dollars to your e85 tank for the time you do is not going to break my piggy bank.

I have personally seen a number of failed e85 bmw engines and they have the exact same damage but I also have seen high km ones on e85 that havent failed and they where perfectly fine when stripped bare so it really depends on luck.

On another note I never seen or heard of a regularly serviced n54 running 93 well here in oz anyway. But seen a number that failed at the recommended bmw service intervals due to heavy slugging.

Its up to the individual what they want to do.

Read, read and read some more, do your own research and inform yourself especially on a touchy subject that could easily cost you tens of thousands of dollars in repairs and then choose your poison.

 

[iminhell1]

A ford focus engine is not a bmw engine so lets compare apples to apples.

Never said it was. But it's the only long term example I have intimate knowledge of, and fwiw it's a full built n/a car.
What I was eluding to though is material science. The metals are same/similar and that is what we're concerned about here. Chemical interactions and such.

 

[martymil]

Some will but most bmw engines wont last on e85.

An engine that does lots of short trips is more susceptible to bearing and cam box damage than an engine that gets raced or runs for long periods of time and not necessarily long trips.

Most of the damage happens on really cold mornings or where when it takes an engine to warm longer than usual.

I've been experimenting with sump warmers lately to bring up the oil temp prior to engine start to minimise this damage and to evaporate any moisture or e85 in the oil but that will be a very long term experiment.

 

[BoostedE90]

Some will but most bmw engines wont last on e85.

An engine that does lots of short trips is more susceptible to bearing and cam box damage than an engine that gets raced or runs for long periods of time and not necessarily long trips.

Most of the damage happens on really cold mornings or where when it takes an engine to warm longer than usual.

I've been experimenting with sump warmers lately to bring up the oil temp prior to engine start to minimise this damage and to evaporate any moisture or e85 in the oil but that will be a very long term experiment.

Interesting statement what’s the deatailed explaintion for your claims about the shorter trips?

 

[Jeffman]

Cold oil sitting in the dump is unable to properly lubricate the engine leading to accelerated wear.
No wonder my 2008 E90 manual emphasizes to keep rpm low / no WOT until the oil has reached at least 210F.

 

[martymil]

Interesting statement what’s the deatailed explaintion for your claims about the shorter trips?

When the oil doesn't reach full temp it doesn't have a chance to boil of contaminants pumping it through your bearings and friction surfaces causing accelerated wear.

I run the standard oil thermostat in my car for street driving to help speed this up but then again todays synthetic oils can handle high track temps, rather change my oil after a track day than run a colder thermostat.

The trick is to get your oil up to thermostat temp quickly and keep it there as long as you can and not as cold as you can.

 

[fmorelli]

An engine that does lots of short trips is more susceptible to bearing and cam box damage than an engine that gets raced or runs for long periods of time and not necessarily long trips.

First off, Marty, thank you for your observations. Practically speaking I cannot say I've seen much of the above kind of issue in the near 30 years I've been around BMWs. I've run a bunch of them out to 150-250k miles (either me or sold to friends you ran them out to those miles). Where I live, many of these cars do lots of short trips while covering those miles. I don't doubt what you observe at all, but rather am saying my experience with BMW engines has not shown this to be a significant factor.

Now to E85, no clue. Hence why I started this thread. What's different than a prior BMW engines? 1) turbo bearings, 2) HPFP, 3) DI injectors ... I was thinking more of the last two relative to E85, but your posts made me think of #1 now as well.

Filippo

 

[martymil]

When im talking bmw engine damage in this thread its related to e85 only

on any type of unleaded this does not happen

 

[doublespaces]

Definetly want to store car with no e85 in it for any longer than a week.

My brand new index 12's must be ruined then

 

[Jeffman]

Anecdote: I’m pretty sure my old index 5 and 8 injectors were somehow adversely affected by E85. I first got the Cobb AP when it came out in ~2011. First OTS tuned on 93oct, then protuned by Jake H / PTF. Since I had E85 nearby in Philly I then explored the E40 maps in the summer, which I loved. But when it started getting cold I went back to the 93oct map, at which point I started getting lots of lean codes and throwing a CEL. I was due for inspection and the CEL kept coming back. After checking all mechanicals and not finding anything wrong I then started self-tuning. Figuring the lean codes were due to not enough fuel getting into the cylinders I increased the fuel scalars. First changing all the low-Load / low-rpm values from 1.00 to 1.02, then to 1.05, which ultimately fixed the lean codes and I passed inspection. By the following year I needed to increase those scalar values to 1.10 to avoid getting lean codes on 93oct. So it seemed to me at the time that the E85 was somehow responsible for reducing the effectiveness of my injectors.

 

[iminhell1]

Anecdote: I’m pretty sure my old index 5 and 8 injectors were somehow adversely affected by E85. I first got the Cobb AP when it came out in ~2011. First OTS tuned on 93oct, then protuned by Jake H / PTF. Since I had E85 nearby in Philly I then explored the E40 maps in the summer, which I loved. But when it started getting cold I went back to the 93oct map, at which point I started getting lots of lean codes and throwing a CEL. I was due for inspection and the CEL kept coming back. After checking all mechanicals and not finding anything wrong I then started self-tuning. Figuring the lean codes were due to not enough fuel getting into the cylinders I increased the fuel scalars. First changing all the low-Load / low-rpm values from 1.00 to 1.02, then to 1.05, which ultimately fixed the lean codes and I passed inspection. By the following year I needed to increase those scalar values to 1.10 to avoid getting lean codes on 93oct. So it seemed to me at the time that the E85 was somehow responsible for reducing the effectiveness of my injectors.

Over the course of 2 years, could be any number of things and there's no way to point to anything. IMO. Hell it could just be some 'aging' programming in the DME.
You have to remember that we don't get full control or definitions from the public xdf. And there are a few things Jake has not figured out himself. We get enough to have fun and make it run well.



And Marty's observations of moisture in the oil are spot on. (and thanks for reminding me I have to put my stock oil valve back in)

 

[Jeffman]

Agreed on putting my stock oil valve back I too. Thanks for the reminder, Marty!

 

[martymil]

My brand new index 12's must be ruined then

I never said it affects injectors but it does.

Tonys words or Chris's where if he left e85 sitting in the injectors for extended periods of time he would usally have to change one or two out as it would effect them, but he use to run his at the ragged edge of flow.

Not saying dont run e85 but dont store it with e85 in your tank. Flex fuel is here use it and save yourself possibly thousands of dollars

 

[fmorelli]

And Marty's observations of moisture in the oil are spot on. (and thanks for reminding me I have to put my stock oil valve back in)

I'm thinking the same ...

Filippo

 

[ansch]

Just ordered some VP M2 upper lube to try.

When you guys talk about E85 are you specifically talking about straight E85 or any form of blend.

 

[martymil]

E60 and above but mostly straight e85

 

[Traf]

One of the reasons i switched to a oil2water exchanger is to get faster warmup on E85.
Thanks to Omar@Hydra

 

[mnick]

I have personally seen a number of failed e85 bmw engines and they have the exact same damage...

What kind of damage?

Personally, I haven’t used additives, nearly 4 yrs ~ 60k on an e60 tune. I replaced HPFP at ~ 70k... still on original injections...

 

[martymil]

What kind of damage?

Personally, I haven’t used additives, nearly 4 yrs ~ 60k on an e60 tune. I replaced HPFP at ~ 70k... still on original injections...

Rod, crank bearing and cam boxes, it really depends on conditions you live, drive in and power your making, every engine that has failed has the same damage and Its not an exact science when its going to fail or start giving you trouble.

Some get lucky and theirs last and some like mine failed after only 15k of spirited driving. (motor was only 15k old)

I was lucky and caught my motor early, it just didn't sound right but still made big power.

After doing a leak down test we found cylinder 6 was down a little more than others, stripping the motor down revealed a cracked ring landing but it didn't completely fail due to a misfire because of faulty 15k old injectors and found other damage that e85 caused along the way.

Catching it early saved me big dollars and I learned a lot, speaking to a number of engine builders revealed what they don't want you to know about e85 as people like us keep them in business.

Don't get me wrong e85 is great but has many drawbacks, flex fuel is here use it.

Run e85 when you want to have fun and when storing the car for winter or extended periods of time, revert back to 93 it could possibly save you thousands.

I'm not preaching or telling one what to do, these are just observations from what I've seen working with these motors.

As always you can ignore or heed my findings, its up to the individual of what they want to do.