Makes you wonder cause you see people with index 1 injectors and so on with no problems that just bought car but anyone making power for most part had to do their injectors. Maybe e85 is what's killing them and they aren't as bad as we think
E85 Lubricity Additives
- Thread starter fmorelli
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The other thing that came to mind was would it be worth it to go DI only to limit the exposure of the valvetrain to ethanol vs using port injection. Haven't heard of ethanol destroying anyones head but i also think people don't thoroughly investigate things when they break.
Ive seen a few dead e85 engines here in OZ and all had pretty bad bearing and cam box wear, all services where under 3000 mile intervals.
I use this stuff here in OZ to minimise injector and pump wear when running e85.
I use this stuff here in OZ to minimise injector and pump wear when running e85.
Yikes very good point I know pi helps keep valves clean but does any make it's way into valvetrain and I wonder if pi increases fuel dilution. I would think most pi guys run very short oci with top quality oils which prob helps tho.
So I am new to E85 which is why I started this thread after doing a bit of reading.I don't really drive my car in the winter, the already in the fall weather I've noticed harder starting. I am planning to switch to regular fuel for winter as I don't think I want to leave a tank of E85 in the car. Do I have that right?
I fired up a discussion with one of the guys I know at Hot Shot's Secret. I use a variety of their products in the Diesels, and some of the issues I'm concerned about with E85 are similar. I'll share anything I find out.
Filippo
I fired up a discussion with one of the guys I know at Hot Shot's Secret. I use a variety of their products in the Diesels, and some of the issues I'm concerned about with E85 are similar. I'll share anything I find out.
Filippo
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Do you have the cold start ethanol tables in your tune?
This is for E10 but the more ethanol the bigger the problem. I definitively would not store a car with E85 in the tank. Pickeling the system with gas is normally what is recommended
This is for E10 but the more ethanol the bigger the problem. I definitively would not store a car with E85 in the tank. Pickeling the system with gas is normally what is recommended
http://www.marcnelsonoil.com/water-hazards-with-e-10.html
http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html
Good question. I've done very little with my tuner on my setup. Mostly because we are switching turbos this winter, and some other things - I like to be respectful of the dude's time
. For now it is a non issue as I'm starting to bleed down to Shell V-nitro.As always, thanks. I think this discussion has borne out two things for me:
- I'll continue my 3k oil changes, move from Motul 8100 to Motul V300. I may do a Blackstone test at 3k when I switch out of 8100 and have substantially run E85 for 3k miles.
- In the spring I'll look to run fuel additive with E85.
Filippo
Good question. I've done very little with my tuner on my setup. Mostly because we are switching turbos this winter, and some other things - I like to be respectful of the dude's time
As always, thanks. I think this discussion has borne out two things for me:
Since this is my thread to abuse, I'll mention that I've been running Hot Shot's Secret FR3 (friction reducing additive) in both my diesels. After a few hundred miles it is unbelievable how much quieter both my N57 is (which is already quiet) and my wife's bluetec MB diesel. It is astonishingly smoother. I've always been somewhat suspect of additives. But this company has a great reputation (it's Stiction Eliminator which diesel guys use with the oil pressure driven injectors, has a huge reputation, for example). I may consider running that in the N54 as well. While my car doesn't see many miles, it gets a harder duty cycle given the way I use it.
- I'll continue my 3k oil changes, move from Motul 8100 to Motul V300. I may do a Blackstone test at 3k when I switch out of 8100 and have substantially run E85 for 3k miles.
- In the spring I'll look to run fuel additive with E85.
Filippo
I would think storing with a quarter tank of gas with some stabilizer would be the way to go. Then just fill up with fresh fuel, at the end of winter and take it easy on the first tank.
The stiction eliminator has a great reputation think i saw it on Jay Lenos garage. I would just check on the base before you run it if its diesel based it may not pass through gas injectors.
Not sure what your power goals are can you run E60? More gas would mean less ethanol
What turbos are you getting?
This is the kind of stuff I find disconcerting, and maybe because I don't understand the subject well enough: (https://lucasoil.com/products/fuel-treatments/safeguard-ethanol-fuel-conditioner-with-stabilizers)
Lucas Safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner cleans up ethanol issues. Whether you use E-10, E-15, E-85, pure ethanol, or any mixture in between, including gasoline, it can be stabilized to prevent varnish and gum formation. Safeguard cleans injectors, valve seats, combustion chambers, and other critical fuel components. It combats deposits and protects your engine's lubricants from the harmful effects of alcohol combustion. Plus, it's completely soluble in all ethanol fuels, will not harm your filters, and contains effective additives to prevent the rust and corrosion associated with ethanol fuels. Condition your fuel with a product specially formulated for problems with ethanol--Safeguard from Lucas Oil.
So half the things this discusses are gasoline (not ethanol) issues. Nothing is mentioned about lubricity, and for that matter, the fuel system. For an ethanol specific additives, their description doesn't exactly leave me feeling warm and fuzzy. Requires being a chemist and material engineering expert to deep dive if the product actually addresses what is needed.
Filippo
Lucas Safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner cleans up ethanol issues. Whether you use E-10, E-15, E-85, pure ethanol, or any mixture in between, including gasoline, it can be stabilized to prevent varnish and gum formation. Safeguard cleans injectors, valve seats, combustion chambers, and other critical fuel components. It combats deposits and protects your engine's lubricants from the harmful effects of alcohol combustion. Plus, it's completely soluble in all ethanol fuels, will not harm your filters, and contains effective additives to prevent the rust and corrosion associated with ethanol fuels. Condition your fuel with a product specially formulated for problems with ethanol--Safeguard from Lucas Oil.
So half the things this discusses are gasoline (not ethanol) issues. Nothing is mentioned about lubricity, and for that matter, the fuel system. For an ethanol specific additives, their description doesn't exactly leave me feeling warm and fuzzy. Requires being a chemist and material engineering expert to deep dive if the product actually addresses what is needed.
Filippo
Agree!
Sorry my post may not have been clear. Not looking to run that in the N54 - was just using Stiction Eliminator as an example of the company rep. I've run it on my 6.0's and 7.3 Powerstrokes.
Once we have the new turbos and get into tuning, we'll see where we land with the tuner. I'm running Motiv FlexFuel solution btw. I'm shooting for circa 600whp with upgraded twins, PR ignition, DI only, VTT single barrel. Hoping to do that sub-25psi. Most of the car is built up to support this - this winter plans are turbos, outlet, single barrel, Motiv clutch/pp, 3DMMotorsport prototype aluminum guibo, and PR ignition. I had the BL ignition and sold it, so on Eldor coils now.
Great question. Honestly I'm 98% sure I know the answer, but I'm not looking to discuss that for another six weeks or so. I'll speak up soon.
Filippo
Definetly want to store car with no e85 in it for any longer than a week.
I think you will need more than a single barrel post 22psi, more likely a double barrel on straight e85 or a lower blend like e50 to e60 but see how you go.
I think you will need more than a single barrel post 22psi, more likely a double barrel on straight e85 or a lower blend like e50 to e60 but see how you go.
Marty, I hope that's not the case. I don't want to run two fueling systems (PI) or two fuel control systems (IAC). Dual HPFP development work, to be controlled by the factory DME Hardware is underway, the but unclear if that will come to fruition.
Filippo
The aic only controls fuel pressure exactly the same way as the dme, yes it will be nicer but you will still have/need some kind of interface box going to the dme to control it.
The Di injectors control how much fuel goes in and that's controlled by dme only, so no problem unlike pi.
No such thing as to much fuel pressure.
I'd be the first to jump up and down if there was an issue.
Marketing IMO.
Find data (term used loosely) from a fuel company about the need for lubricity in E fuel.
What you have found now comes from additive companies. Which IMO amounts to marketing more than science. And what I mean by marketing vs science is that there is no durability or long term testing attached. Say if I don't use their additive how many miles will I get before a breakdown? With the additive how many miles? Now what's the cost of repair vs the cost of additive over the term?
Many times they'll just throw data at you with no real world testing or actual 'layman's' examples or expectations. Baffel them with bullshit if you will.
All I can comment on is long term with my other car/s, Ford Focus's. They have been on pump E85 (never tested content once) since about 2007. But parked since 2015 due to some problems.
Over that time I have done yearly fuel system inspections and have not found any degradation of anything. Have not needed to replace injectors, pump, lines, filters (including in injector filters). Everything looked pristine.
I am the tuner of the cars and have thousands of datalogs. I never once had one that I could say 'yes right here is a problem with the E85 content or mechanical fault caused by the lack of lubricity of the fuel'.
To the contrary. My testing has caused me to try to exclusively run E85 in everything. Some because of politics, I live in farm country and my fuel is made 40 miles away from me, I know people who work there even. I feel I help support local people I actually know. And the second is because of actual science. ICE use Oxygen to make power. If a fuel contains more it can make more power, vs having to ingest more air to make more power ... if it does both it's a big bonus. And I'm all about more power.
Now the one thing I have seen is that Ethanol fumes are more corrosive than Gasoline. That is to say in a storage situation with not a full tank, the dry portions will Oxidize faster from Ethanol than gasoline. But both will.
It's the fuzzy white stuff that will be on everything.
But with many things being a HPDE fuel tank now, you don't need to worry about that corroding. And much of the fuel lines are also plastic. So you're left with the fuel pump itself being the only metal in the tank. So long as it's under the fuel line you should be fine for storage. Something with a steel tank you'll want full plus a storage additive, IMO.
And there was some mention of bearings, sorry I breezed over what it actually said.
My feeling, drain your oil and fill with gasolline. How do your bearings stand up? Probably just as well as they would if you'd fill with Ethanol. Both displace oil pretty well, can be used as a 'degreaser'.
Anything bearing related boils down to blow-by and ring tension. The proper method is to do Used Oil Analysis and gather data. But most of us won't and we'll spend that $25 on more frequent oil changes, which is what I do. Never had any problems with this method.
Find data (term used loosely) from a fuel company about the need for lubricity in E fuel.
What you have found now comes from additive companies. Which IMO amounts to marketing more than science. And what I mean by marketing vs science is that there is no durability or long term testing attached. Say if I don't use their additive how many miles will I get before a breakdown? With the additive how many miles? Now what's the cost of repair vs the cost of additive over the term?
Many times they'll just throw data at you with no real world testing or actual 'layman's' examples or expectations. Baffel them with bullshit if you will.
All I can comment on is long term with my other car/s, Ford Focus's. They have been on pump E85 (never tested content once) since about 2007. But parked since 2015 due to some problems.
Over that time I have done yearly fuel system inspections and have not found any degradation of anything. Have not needed to replace injectors, pump, lines, filters (including in injector filters). Everything looked pristine.
I am the tuner of the cars and have thousands of datalogs. I never once had one that I could say 'yes right here is a problem with the E85 content or mechanical fault caused by the lack of lubricity of the fuel'.
To the contrary. My testing has caused me to try to exclusively run E85 in everything. Some because of politics, I live in farm country and my fuel is made 40 miles away from me, I know people who work there even. I feel I help support local people I actually know. And the second is because of actual science. ICE use Oxygen to make power. If a fuel contains more it can make more power, vs having to ingest more air to make more power ... if it does both it's a big bonus. And I'm all about more power.
Now the one thing I have seen is that Ethanol fumes are more corrosive than Gasoline. That is to say in a storage situation with not a full tank, the dry portions will Oxidize faster from Ethanol than gasoline. But both will.
It's the fuzzy white stuff that will be on everything.
But with many things being a HPDE fuel tank now, you don't need to worry about that corroding. And much of the fuel lines are also plastic. So you're left with the fuel pump itself being the only metal in the tank. So long as it's under the fuel line you should be fine for storage. Something with a steel tank you'll want full plus a storage additive, IMO.
And there was some mention of bearings, sorry I breezed over what it actually said.
My feeling, drain your oil and fill with gasolline. How do your bearings stand up? Probably just as well as they would if you'd fill with Ethanol. Both displace oil pretty well, can be used as a 'degreaser'.
Anything bearing related boils down to blow-by and ring tension. The proper method is to do Used Oil Analysis and gather data. But most of us won't and we'll spend that $25 on more frequent oil changes, which is what I do. Never had any problems with this method.
I'm thinking in terms of fuel pumps, mostly, maybe injectors. I did a $14,000 fuel system (tank to injectors) replacement on my BMW diesel at 24k miles. Lubricity is a known issue with modern fuel pumps. I love science. But it catches up with problems, often. Unfortunately in the meantime, it doesn't pay the $14k bill.
Filippo
Filippo
That extensive of repair sounds like someone filled with gasoline. Diesel is more oily than gas. If you put gas in diesel it'll kill pumps ... mostly because of a the changes in seals/bearings.
I can't see that $14k being to blame on the diesel itself.
Diesel in gas isn't as bad FWIW. but don't do it.
But, some of the new bio-diesel's have problems with algae growth. That black slime that will clog filters and such.
When it comes to whether fuel additives maybe worth using, the chemical engineer in me wants to first know the composition of the stuff, which sometimes can be ascertained from its materials safety data sheet (MSDS) which manufacturers are required to provide. Although the MSDS doesn’t give a complete recipe, you can glean whether there’s some really active stuff in the additive, or just a mixture of different solvents. In the case of Lucas Safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner, the MSDS seems to be just solvents (like gas) to help keep any water stay mixed in and not attack the fuel system.
https://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_safeguard-ethanol-stabilizer.pdf
Interesting I did not know solvents would do that most of the HEET /fuel system drier show alcohol as a main ingredient on the msds
• IsoHEET
Isopropyl alcohol 98.5%
