What is the highest HP from all the hybrid turbos?
- Thread starter maristgrad09
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I'm not really sure that it is fair to say having a built motor for 800whp is cheating. Tony is trying to show what the turbo is capable of, if you have the motor to handle it. Even if, by some miracle, you were able to get 800whp out of your stock motor it would very short lived. Maybe as little as a few dyno pulls before you had a catastrophic failure of some sort. If you are targeting over 700whp, you had better plan to have a "built" motor to enjoy it for any reasonable amount of time.
I wouldn't call it cheating, but it is comparing apples to oranges. Since 80%+ of the people running upgraded turbo(s) are stock motor.
From an overview, the motor (stock) is a weak link, ultimately. If you want big power you have to build it. If you spool slower or taper boost to prolong the life, great, but ultimately big power and stock motor aren't a good match. This is the same with twins, singles, etc. We sell turbos and will show you how much power they can make. They'll make the same power on a stock bottom end but I wouldn't expect it to last long. If the other guys are crying about us using a built motor (and I know that not all of them are), to me, honestly, it's just a piss poor weak argument. Do you keep the stock clutch? Stock runflats? Stock airbox filter? You replace parts/pieces as required. The motor is a big expense, no question about it, but how far you want to push is up to you not the turbo manufacturer. The whole idea of structuring platform standards of boost and power levels only around stock motors is fundamentally flawed; the turbos flow air, that makes power. Some do so more efficiently than others. If you want to limit output to preserve longevity -by all means, but compressor maps don't account for cast pistons or weak rods.
If you want great spool and reliability with a stock motor, much north of 600-650 whp is going to cut into your component lifespan significantly. If you trade off some spool or taper boost in slowly you could probably raise that number a little since the rods won't see crazy torque down low. It's still a wear item that will give up the ghost in time.
I agree most people have stock motors, but if you use that as a barometer for power capability you give the tip of the hat to the guy that got lucky on a motor and gives zero f's about blowing it up. Which, funnily enough, would probably still be us if that's all that was available.
If you want great spool and reliability with a stock motor, much north of 600-650 whp is going to cut into your component lifespan significantly. If you trade off some spool or taper boost in slowly you could probably raise that number a little since the rods won't see crazy torque down low. It's still a wear item that will give up the ghost in time.
I agree most people have stock motors, but if you use that as a barometer for power capability you give the tip of the hat to the guy that got lucky on a motor and gives zero f's about blowing it up. Which, funnily enough, would probably still be us if that's all that was available.
From an overview, the motor (stock) is a weak link, ultimately. If you want big power you have to build it. If you spool slower or taper boost to prolong the life, great, but ultimately big power and stock motor aren't a good match. This is the same with twins, singles, etc. We sell turbos and will show you how much power they can make. They'll make the same power on a stock bottom end but I wouldn't expect it to last long. If the other guys are crying about us using a built motor (and I know that not all of them are), to me, honestly, it's just a piss poor weak argument. Do you keep the stock clutch? Stock runflats? Stock airbox filter? You replace parts/pieces as required. The motor is a big expense, no question about it, but how far you want to push is up to you not the turbo manufacturer. The whole idea of structuring platform standards of boost and power levels only around stock motors is fundamentally flawed; the turbos flow air, that makes power. Some do so more efficiently than others. If you want to limit output to preserve longevity -by all means, but compressor maps don't account for cast pistons or weak rods.
If you want great spool and reliability with a stock motor, much north of 600-650 whp is going to cut into your component lifespan significantly. If you trade off some spool or taper boost in slowly you could probably raise that number a little since the rods won't see crazy torque down low. It's still a wear item that will give up the ghost in time.
I agree most people have stock motors, but if you use that as a barometer for power capability you give the tip of the hat to the guy that got lucky on a motor and gives zero f's about blowing it up. Which, funnily enough, would probably still be us if that's all that was available.
Tony is lucky he found you. Rather then him responding in a fire pissing T-Rex rage, but unable to actually do anything with his little arms, you speak informatively and actually make a point without being an ass about it. I agree, not only have you guys probably pushed the stock motor to it limits (more then once) but also are pushing your turbos on built motors. It's just good to know what we're comparing since the stock head can't flow like your built one can.
I know it's off topic, but when I read this, all I can picture is this:
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Made me chuckle...
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Strictly N54. Yea GCs put out the most power for twins, but not sure those are considered hybrids.
Traditional hybrids on N54 goes to Pure Stage 2 Hi flows or the the regular MMP stage 3. I've seen more pure twins over 700whp than the MMPs.
But hybrids in general, the kratos twins are over 1000whp.
Traditional hybrids on N54 goes to Pure Stage 2 Hi flows or the the regular MMP stage 3. I've seen more pure twins over 700whp than the MMPs.
But hybrids in general, the kratos twins are over 1000whp.
The MMP1000 1k's are a good option if looking for twins, they are probably not hybrids because they don't use the stock frame exhaust manifold design but they are modular style exhaust manifolds that can be separated which is a pro and offer high flow capable of 850whp. Too bad it doesn't come standard with a warranty.
The downside with twins is I can't tell how reliable they are and I dont recall any being ball bearing also they need to be pushed to the edge at 30psi to make those numbers. If you have outlets the silcone hose joiner on the vrsf aluminum outlet or similar will separate at high boost and you have a boost leak to fix. Then all the plumbing to worry about like inlets outlets downpipes. The MMP1000 1k's don't have vband style outlets so you will need to use a silicone hose and clamp on both. A single turbo swap would eliminate a lot of the twin turbo clutter but you do lose the early low end torque which everyone wants.
The downside with twins is I can't tell how reliable they are and I dont recall any being ball bearing also they need to be pushed to the edge at 30psi to make those numbers. If you have outlets the silcone hose joiner on the vrsf aluminum outlet or similar will separate at high boost and you have a boost leak to fix. Then all the plumbing to worry about like inlets outlets downpipes. The MMP1000 1k's don't have vband style outlets so you will need to use a silicone hose and clamp on both. A single turbo swap would eliminate a lot of the twin turbo clutter but you do lose the early low end torque which everyone wants.
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I know this is an old thread and a question that is asked a lot on FB now, but I think that's due to people realizing theres certainly some very reliable twin options now that can both make power and last long enough to get your money's worth so I'd like to put in my 2c as well.
The GCs have been proven at the highest HP rating for sure and I'm a VTT fan so I like to hear that, even though I didnt go with their turbos. I dont think anyone has come close to maxing out the MMP 1Ks (which is what I went with for a few reasons) yet though, either. If I were to have gone with stock frames the Pure S2 HF would have been my choice most likely, but at the time I upgraded I had only seen one dyno where they hit over 700 wheel, and it was something like 707 and then the owner decided to turn down boost as he didnt trust them at that power level - however I'm sure you as a tuner have seen more dyno graphs than are posted online so I trust your word.
I also agree with Chris's post from earlier in this thread that a built engine and/or modified head is certainly not cheating when showing what the *turbos* are capable of. Just like we typically consider hotside inlets, larger outlets and a big IC standard mods to get the stock turbos to their max effort yet everyone seems to agree that stock twins are capable of ~500whp on max effort tuning. That wouldnt happen without supporting mods, it just so happens that supporting mods get bigger and more costly when upgrading turbos. "Pay to play" is the golden rule of car modification, but people seem to think that doesnt apply to the N54 because it's so easy to double your stock whp without doing anything that isnt the strict definition of "bolt on."
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Just to play devils advocate and because most of these guys dont post here AFAIK, as well as MMP's general lack of forum presence or advertising I would like to post this screenshot. It seems to have been edited because there used to be a "top 3" for WHP with all of them at or above 700whp (I think the 3rd spot for the stage 3s was like 69x which is close enough for conversations sake)
To me it seems like the two top options for power AND longevity go to VTT and MMP if were talking twins, period. Lots of posts in that FB thread of people running 26-28-30psi for 10-30k+ miles and I know for sure people have also been doing similar numbers and time with the GC and GC Lite. Whether the ST crowd or other salty people want to call all twins hybrids or not.
The cast options for larger frame turbos now adays in my eyes are awesome. I know those two vendor's owners would likely try to kill one another if they met in person, but as a fan of both companies I love seeing their successes.
I'm also very interested to see how the new MMP stage 3 v2.0 with the cast housing and manifold will perform. I have a feeling we might be seeing some crazy torque numbers if people dont intentionally limit them, considering the flow capabilities of the mani and housings being combined with a quick spooling, smaller 4343 wheel.
Also I really wish the people with the MMP ball bearing GTX CHRA turbos would post some more results, but I guess that's a bit irrelevant for this thread. Once I get as much as I can out of my 1Ks (going to do cams here soon, eventually will likely end up with a ported head too but it's not exactly in the current plan atm) I would love to upgrade to a set of the top-top-shelf turbos of either vendor. Whether that be the largest MMP BB GTX turbos or the VTT stage 3s (if price comes down a bit and/or I stumble into a bunch of extra money), I really want to see more performance numbers from one of the two and doing it first hand might be my best option.
For the most part I definitely agree with you Justin. I dont think we should consider any of the larger housing twins as "hybrids" any more, since basically the only thing they share with the stock turbos is the down pipe attachment flanges.
The GCs have been proven at the highest HP rating for sure and I'm a VTT fan so I like to hear that, even though I didnt go with their turbos. I dont think anyone has come close to maxing out the MMP 1Ks (which is what I went with for a few reasons) yet though, either. If I were to have gone with stock frames the Pure S2 HF would have been my choice most likely, but at the time I upgraded I had only seen one dyno where they hit over 700 wheel, and it was something like 707 and then the owner decided to turn down boost as he didnt trust them at that power level - however I'm sure you as a tuner have seen more dyno graphs than are posted online so I trust your word.
I also agree with Chris's post from earlier in this thread that a built engine and/or modified head is certainly not cheating when showing what the *turbos* are capable of. Just like we typically consider hotside inlets, larger outlets and a big IC standard mods to get the stock turbos to their max effort yet everyone seems to agree that stock twins are capable of ~500whp on max effort tuning. That wouldnt happen without supporting mods, it just so happens that supporting mods get bigger and more costly when upgrading turbos. "Pay to play" is the golden rule of car modification, but people seem to think that doesnt apply to the N54 because it's so easy to double your stock whp without doing anything that isnt the strict definition of "bolt on."
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Just to play devils advocate and because most of these guys dont post here AFAIK, as well as MMP's general lack of forum presence or advertising I would like to post this screenshot. It seems to have been edited because there used to be a "top 3" for WHP with all of them at or above 700whp (I think the 3rd spot for the stage 3s was like 69x which is close enough for conversations sake)
To me it seems like the two top options for power AND longevity go to VTT and MMP if were talking twins, period. Lots of posts in that FB thread of people running 26-28-30psi for 10-30k+ miles and I know for sure people have also been doing similar numbers and time with the GC and GC Lite. Whether the ST crowd or other salty people want to call all twins hybrids or not.
The cast options for larger frame turbos now adays in my eyes are awesome. I know those two vendor's owners would likely try to kill one another if they met in person, but as a fan of both companies I love seeing their successes.
I'm also very interested to see how the new MMP stage 3 v2.0 with the cast housing and manifold will perform. I have a feeling we might be seeing some crazy torque numbers if people dont intentionally limit them, considering the flow capabilities of the mani and housings being combined with a quick spooling, smaller 4343 wheel.
Also I really wish the people with the MMP ball bearing GTX CHRA turbos would post some more results, but I guess that's a bit irrelevant for this thread. Once I get as much as I can out of my 1Ks (going to do cams here soon, eventually will likely end up with a ported head too but it's not exactly in the current plan atm) I would love to upgrade to a set of the top-top-shelf turbos of either vendor. Whether that be the largest MMP BB GTX turbos or the VTT stage 3s (if price comes down a bit and/or I stumble into a bunch of extra money), I really want to see more performance numbers from one of the two and doing it first hand might be my best option.
I think that "stock-frame" and "hybrids" should be used interchangeably, since at the end of the day the customer shouldn't really care if the components are OEM-based or not, all that matters is that they fit in lieu of the stock turbos. Plus more and more mfgs are moving away from hybrids and using outsourced components of some sort or another. The stock turbine housings are a HUGE bottleneck to making reliable power and are best dispensed with if at all possible.
I like it guys, we've been putting out big numbers for a long time and will of course continue to do so. GC's are awesome turbos, no two ways about it. As far as other vendors, for example Mauricio, while we certainly don't see eye to eye on a variety of topics, but we've emailed and spoken several times. He was always polite to me and I to him, it's not that hard to understand a competitor is still a person and extend a modicum of (guarded... let's not be naïve... some will try to take advantage of that) courtesy. I'd get a drink with most of the vendors, there are one or two that went out of their way to burn that bridge with me but who cares in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day we're having fun making cars go quick and fast, we love what we do.
At the time there might have been a few single turbos making more peak hp but the gc testing from vtt showed a torque reading way above any dynos of any other single turbo or twin setup. The power under the curve of the gc testing vtt did is still beyond most n54 most if not all current turbo options.
I have never purchased anything off vtt and never would due to issues with his products and online antics. Definitley not a fan of his but the testing has done is very consistent and open.
Yes... pure have that core set up and MMP don't. I dont think MMP'S are HYBRIDS. My research proves that pure has the best hybrid twins.
http://asrkratos.com/ didn't see anything for the N54 and best is 850whp=1000hp for twins so far.
For a 'real life' Highest HP of all the twins discussion I would throw out all Vendor glory number dyno pulls as NO ONE seems to get even close to them. Twins basically max out at 700whp on the N54 on 100% E85. Singles can and do go much higher. It also really depends on the fuel you have available, No E85 than twins make garbage numbers compared to a single on the same fuel for obvious reasons. I never hear of people going from twins to a single regretting it. I never see people go from a single turbo back to twins. It is what it is. Both have a place in the market depending on your power goals, available fuel, and size of your wallet.
Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two. <--This does not change and directly relates to the N54 and the singles vs twins discussion.
Interesting, I would have said Pure and RB. You rarely, if ever hear, about failures or CS issues. The same cannot be said about MMP or VTT. What lead you to that conclusion? As an example VTT has had multiple public service campaigns where they had to replace the chinese cast turbos, wheel problems, etc. no other twin vendor has had to do this that I am aware of. Maybe MMP did too early on or am I miss remembering? I know their outlets are JUNK.
MMP is like Frankenturbo where they moved to Facebook where they can control the narrative and it is basically impossible to search in a useful manner unlike a forum. So it's harder to quantify or document the failures, not many seem to run them on the forums.
Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two. <--This does not change and directly relates to the N54 and the singles vs twins discussion.
Interesting, I would have said Pure and RB. You rarely, if ever hear, about failures or CS issues. The same cannot be said about MMP or VTT. What lead you to that conclusion? As an example VTT has had multiple public service campaigns where they had to replace the chinese cast turbos, wheel problems, etc. no other twin vendor has had to do this that I am aware of. Maybe MMP did too early on or am I miss remembering? I know their outlets are JUNK.
MMP is like Frankenturbo where they moved to Facebook where they can control the narrative and it is basically impossible to search in a useful manner unlike a forum. So it's harder to quantify or document the failures, not many seem to run them on the forums.
Yes, VTT did a recall campaign. But so has BMW, several times. Does that make all BMWs from 06-11 junk? I would hardly think so.
Also, I've heard of plenty of RB turbo failures in the FB groups, one person of which has gone through 3 sets of Next Gens(?) in a year and had warranty claim issues just as bad or worse than you've heard from the other vendors. I dont think MMP moved to FB in order to control the output of their customers either, I think it's mostly that Mauricio is busy working and doesnt enjoy the drama that N54 Forums brought for so long. I've also seen a handful of people go from ST back to twins on FB - you have to remember the majority of the platform resides on those groups now, not on forums like they did in the mid to late 00s. Yes the more technical and knowledgeable discussion is on the various forums, but most users are either uninterested in the forums or just stalk them at best. You have to consider both sides when talking about the platform as a whole.
Anyway, my reasoning for saying those two are the most reliable for high HP is because Pures and RBs rarely, if ever put out anywhere close to 700whp for more than one "dyno glory pull" and both companies have a multitude of customers who are running at those boost and HP levels for thousands and thousands of miles, meanwhile a stock frame turbo with a bigger wheel would be well out of its efficiency range to make that power due to size constraints.
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