Ad: Spool Helix HPFP overdrive Kit

[martymil]

Wont need it as with the billet vac pump case and a well designed and tested bracket will do the job.

But that is up to the manufacturer.

 

[scrllock]

As for the reliability testing, even that's been documented. Spool had one of the Helix drives hooked up to a HPFP running at full duty cycle day and night for weeks before opening the beta testing more, and since beta testing theres several of us with thousands of miles on it already - at least one person with over 30k as of a few months ago.

That's the first I've heard of any details on bench testing on reliability. People would rather not rely on a forum poster claiming to be a beta tester with inside info--it's not unreasonable to expect something from the vendor, that's all. Not that I doubt you, but forum astroturfing is definitely a thing.

I will buy one of these units, before the vacuum pump problem get solved because frankly it is elementary school easy to solve. But until the xdf files are released, this is a captured product, so I have to wait.

With preorders now in the mail, I'll be optimistic and assume that the tables will be released this weekend, but we'll see.

 

[fmorelli]

Money is burning a hole in my Paypal account. Hope you are correct, @scrllock. I'm expecting a head back from @ThatBoostedLifestyle in a few weeks . He's back from vacation and wrapping up the intake dividers and polish work. I'd like like to have the Helix by early October so it can go in with everything else. We will fab an insurance bracket - no need to wait for Spool to solve that, though I'm sure given the quality of the work they've demonstrated thus far, they don't need all the incredible wisdom of this group to solve this.

Filippo

 

[Rob09msport]

You guys aren't thinking outside the box and only see the problem in front of you.

First of all something is causing enough vibration for the casing to crack.

You brace that to the block and the vibrations will transfer to the block right near the knock sensors.

Still that's only a band aid solution

From a liability stand point its 110% a problem.

Your coming into a corner at the track doing 130mph lets say, vacuum pump breaks off and you lost vacuum to your brakes, also car lost fuel pressure and gone into limp mode.

No power, no brakes car most likely running rough.

This is a worst case scenario but one that can't be overlooked.

Fuel pressure loss is not a big deal but loosing vacuum to the brakes, under no circumstance this acceptable because you are worried about saving a few dollars.

Its a valid concern and should be looked at.

Building a new case from billet wouldn't be hard for a skilled shop because your not starting from scratch as the casing is already made and only needs a 3d scan
and machined out of billet.

You want to put your heads in the sand like ostriches and hope for the best so be it.

What if someone has your filter cowl covers and the cabin fills with fumes.
I would imagine like every other car you would get one or two brake presses before lose all assist so when half engine appears on idrive and car shuts down you stop then .
Most racecar modifications brings forth a set of risks or problems. I don't want live in a world where people dont get skylights for fear of a burglary and getting sued if the guy falls through it.
I prob seem like a dick right now but just trying ti show how abstract your scenario is that Is based on alot of unsubstantiated facts.

 

[fmorelli]

So S55 dual HPFP. I've not had both vac pumps in my hand. Drawings and photos seem to show they are very similar in design, though obviously different part numbers (maybe identical in design/mounting). Dual HPFP has lots more hanging off the snout than a stock N54. No additional support, no design difference that I can tell in materials or mounting of the pump. @Hydra Performance I know you have some S55 experience ... and @NoQuarter has the S55 pumps and spent too much time in this locale of the N54 ... is the comparison reasonable ... or ... ?

Filippo

.

 

[Rob09msport]

Its pleasant to see they are taking it seriously, bench testing at fully duty is all good but there are other factors that might have contributed to the failure like
constant driving on bad roads and potholes where violent shock is introduced into the equation for example.

Maybe have a support bracket coming off one of the manifold studs would be better than of the block to stop possible interference with the knock sensors.
but that is hypothetical and needs to be further investigated.

I personally have tied back all cables and lines away from the block so i dont have any possible interference with my setup to eliminate the possible odd chance this happening.

Would it be possible to select how much over dive you would like at checkout, like made to order for different power levels ?

You do choose your power level 3x or 4x reg or extreme. That should be good idea for shotgun tho

 

[NoQuarter]

So S55 dual HPFP. I've not had both vac pumps in my hand. Drawings and photos seem to show they are very similar in design, though obviously different part numbers (maybe identical in design/mounting). Dual HPFP has lots more hanging off the snout than a stock N54. No additional support, no design difference that I can tell in materials or mounting of the pump. @Hydra Performance I know you have some S55 experience ... and @NoQuarter has the S55 pumps and spent too much time in this locale of the N54 ... is the comparison reasonable ... or ... ?

Filippo

Good thinking Filippo...

It seems the parts are not as identical as the diagram seems to show. In summary, it looks to me like the S55 design accounts for the extra weight/torque

The mounting tabs marked in red-
- Stock Vacuum Pump: 4mm (even less because the bolt is recessed!)
- S55 pump: 6mm

edit:
The S55 pump also has a supporting attachment at the top of the assembly connecting a high point near the front HPFP (marked in blue) to the vacuum pump effectively relieving any stress from the mounting tabs.

Scratch that... that extra mounting tab at the top does not connect to the vacuum pump. Only to the same mounting tab part of the pump so provides no help with what we are discussing.

So it seems the extra load is carried by the thicker mounting tabs

 

[martymil]

You do choose your power level 3x or 4x reg or extreme. That should be good idea for shotgun tho

Im not going to talk about the shotgun here, if you like to talk about it there is a thread for that already.

My questions are legitimate besides what some believe as i have a build right now that needs this solution as the shotgun will not fit.

 

[SpoolPerformance]

We have more than 70 units running on cars now and we have had one vacuum plate failure as shown in the picture posted above on the regular helix and 2 on the 4x version which is in beta testing. The failure develops as a hairline crack and causes an oil leak but did not cause a noticeable change in vacuum generation. part does not break apart until it is removed from the car since its held in place by the 4 bolts. We examined the crack surfaces and found impurities embedded at the fracture surfaces which is why we concluded the failures as bad casting examples. Given the couple of failures we do intend on solving them as a preventive measure. We have developed Billet replacement plates that are much stronger with added thickness. A bigger batch is already being manufactured.

 

[martymil]

When will the one with the billet vacuum cover will be available and how much ?

when will the xdf files be available for other tuners ?

 

[doublespaces]

when will the xdf files be available for other tuners ?

You are not asking the right person, SpoolPerformance makes hardware. If any tuner cannot wait, my recommendation to them is to get out WinOLS and find the tables as the others did.

 

[martymil]

Fair enough but this will limit sales as most have invested lots of time tuning their cars with other tuners only to have to start again.

Dont think so, we all know most people don't have spare cash on this platform for another tuner they don't know or trust.

So the waiting game begins.

 

[fmorelli]

I'll double down on @martymil's comment - tuners are a relationship for many car owns. That relationship is not fungible.

People are not looking to switch tuners because one guy has tables to hardware that is otherwise sub-optimal to not useful.

I don't know what the relationship or collaboration was on this product, but I think parties involved would do well to speak up and clarify what the story is - I appreciate @doublespaces having an opinion on this, but frankly it's not his problem and we don't need an emissary on the subject. @SpoolPerformance @WedgePerformance - can you all clue us in so we can stop reading tea leaves on what should be pretty straightforward?

I don't know why this subject is not being addressed directly. What am I missing? Several people have asked.

Filippo

 

[doublespaces]

I'll double down on Marty's comment - tuners are a relationship for many car owns. That relationship is not fungible.

People are not looking to switch tuners because one guy has tables to hardware that is otherwise sub-optimal to not useful.

I don't know what the relationship or collaboration was on this product, but I think parties involved would do well to speak up and clarify what the story is - I appreciate @doublespaces having an opinion on this, but frankly it's not his problem and we don't need an emissary on the subject. @SpoolPerformance @WedgePerformance - can you all clue us in so we can stop reading tea leaves on what should be pretty straightforward?

Filippo

Like I said, any tuner who wants the tables is free to go pop open winols and find them. They don't or can't so I don't actually feel bad. People are acting as if Wedge is obligated to give away their hard earned competitive edge for nothing. That is silly talk.

 

[Rob09msport]

Like I said, any tuner who wants the tables is free to go pop open winols and find them. They don't or can't so I don't actually feel bad. People are acting as if Wedge is obligated to give away their hard earned competitive edge for nothing. That is silly talk.

No noone is saying that but when a product release thread is made and a selling point is made of the fact that this is better than shotgun and is being done right with tuning tables that will be made available to the public , then people expect for that to happen.

 

[doublespaces]

No noone is saying that but when a product release thread is made and a selling point is made of the fact that this is better than shotgun and is being done right with tuning tables that will be made available to the public , then people expect for that to happen.

I have no handle on where they are with that process but I do fully expect that to occur and I'm sure they do as well.

 

[langsbr]

People are acting as if Wedge is obligated to give away their hard earned competitive edge for nothing. That is silly talk.

Normally I would agree - if this is only a matter of said product is "enhanced' by the tables, then Wedge can offer a competitive advantage by being the only tuner that has them, or anyone he shares them with. If however, the product depends on the tables for proper functionality, then I would say it is just a detriment to Spool to not have the tables in the public domain. I'd think their best bet would have been to commission the finding of those tables and pay a fee for them.

Even though tuners lock their tunes, they can be unlocked. I would think rather than find the tables themselves, tuners would find them from someone's tune that has them.

It's purely conjecture on my part, but hey, that's what the internet is for, right? I believe Justin/v8bait does/has done/did have a relationship with VTT and tuned a number of shotgun vehicles. With even he asking - a very well known and respected tuner, it appears there may be some withholding of the xdf's possibly since VTT offers a competitive product. If the tables enhance the operation of the shotgun as well, I can see why. If I were Wedge and really did the finding of these tables, I'd think he could possibly partner with MHD to make it a purchasable module, similar to the Motiv flex fuel. Surely it would take some more development, but if the desire is to protect intellectual property, that's how it should be done. It's a good thing he found every other table on his own for the multitude of DMEs that gave him a competitive advantage in becoming a tuner. Oh wait, he didn't? He used publicly available xdfs the community created? Maybe he should contribute too? But then how could he make more money...

 

[fmorelli]

I have no handle on where they are with that process but I do fully expect that to occur and I'm sure they do as well.

Not to be argumentative,, @doublespaces, but it's simply neither your decision nor your purview. So your opinion is just like anyone else's opinion. An opinion. It would be nice to hear directly from the horse's mouth. That's simply what I asked for. No more. No less.

Filippo

 

[martymil]

Tune changes
The horsepower numbers quoted were made possible only with changes to the stock DME inlet metering valve control tables. During our initial phases, we weren't achieving expected pressures in the rail at over 550 whp levels. Through bench testing the valve under flow conditions we quickly established that the limiting factor was the flow through the metering valve. Steven Brachulis and Ken Atkinson from @WedgePerformance were instrumental in helping figure out the calibration changes needed to flow more fuel through the inlet valve and we would like to take this opportunity to thank them for all the help on the tune development. Also want to thank Jake Yamona who was instrumental in helping set up RAM variable logging to monitor the parameters needed to understand and modify the calibration parameters and defining the needed tables for all the different ROMs. The xdf’s with the new tables will be released shortly and will be available to all major tuners.

As pointed out earlier and what is asked what was promised 6 months ago which in most peoples view long overdue, nothing less.

 

[doublespaces]

Normally I would agree - if this is only a matter of said product is "enhanced' by the tables, then Wedge can offer a competitive advantage by being the only tuner that has them, or anyone he shares them with. If however, the product depends on the tables for proper functionality, then I would say it is just a detriment to Spool to not have the tables in the public domain. I'd think their best bet would have been to commission the finding of those tables and pay a fee for them.

You/I/We can get into semantics here, but its of no difference to me.

Even though tuners lock their tunes, they can be unlocked. I would think rather than find the tables themselves, tuners would find them from someone's tune that has them.

This is not condoned and anyone doing this would be banned from the site.

It's purely conjecture on my part, but hey, that's what the internet is for, right? I believe Justin/v8bait does/has done/did have a relationship with VTT and tuned a number of shotgun vehicles. With even he asking - a very well known and respected tuner, it appears there may be some withholding of the xdf's possibly since VTT offers a competitive product. If the tables enhance the operation of the shotgun as well, I can see why.

I've thought of this as well, and even speculated this may be a factor, but these are two entirely different products. One has two pumps and takes all day to install, the other has one pump and takes 45 mins to install and flows 750+ whp e85. I don't think that is stopping him from wanting them released. I've not had this discussion but its just my view.

If I were Wedge and really did the finding of these tables, I'd think he could possibly partner with MHD to make it a purchasable module, similar to the Motiv flex fuel. Surely it would take some more development, but if the desire is to protect intellectual property, that's how it should be done.

So you're saying that isn't occurring? I don't know, I'm asking because if it was that would explain some things, Jake is in time debt, there is none available.