Question on PSP outlet for MMP Stg 3

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Good point, @Rob@RBTurbo, and hopefully a good tip if others have them. If I was to use them, I'd want a bead all around, since the bead creates the seal by design.

In my case, this just accelerated @barry@3DM schedule on making the stainless steel outlet for the road course track kit he's developing. Since I'm going to be E90 orientation with the turbos, Barry will design up both a 2" coupler solution and a stock v-band solution.

Filippo

Yeah that is the point about making the tool in that you crimp it all around the pipe thus making the bead all around the pipe thus creating the seal all around the pipe.

But hear ya... sometimes to get things the way you want them it is best to just do it yourself.

Rob

 

[fmorelli]

But hear ya... sometimes to get things the way you want them it is best to just do it yourself.
Rob

Literally what @barry@3DM said to me this morning ...

Filippo

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Literally what @barry@3DM said to me this morning ...

Filippo

Yeah, it is probably a bit presumptuous anyway to place bets on an outlet that is set up for a different turbo setup for what you intend it. I can almost guarantee you there are going to be some differences in the setup orientations and clocking of both (even if MINOR it can still cause MAJOR fitment issues), which likely is going to just compound the grief factor when said and done.

Rob

 

[fmorelli]

Anyone have an E90 stock outlet they're willing to contribute as a mock-up dummy? We need it for reference for designing the stainless outlet. PM me please.

Filippo

 

[Hydra Performance]

Anyone have an E90 stock outlet they're willing to contribute as a mock-up dummy? We need it for reference for designing the stainless outlet. PM me please.

Filippo

I will do my best to send one out with the S55 bits next week, will keep you posted

 

[Panzerfaust]

Anyone have an E90 stock outlet they're willing to contribute as a mock-up dummy? We need it for reference for designing the stainless outlet. PM me please.

Filippo

If Hydra isn't able to supply you with one for some reason let me know, I've had one taking up space for a while that I'd be happy to donate.

 

[Davidwarren]

If Hydra isn't able to supply you with one for some reason let me know, I've had one taking up space for a while that I'd be happy to donate.

Me too.

 

[fmorelli]

Thanks all. One of our community members was kind enough to send one out to us.

Filippo

 

[Dreyo27]

I also bought the MMP S3 outlets when I bought my 1Ks - I can't seem to find the pictures I took, but that's definitely not how mine looked. Its unfortunate you've had QC issues with his outlets, mine were a really nice piece even though I also used different heat wrap than just the gold tape.

Just a heads up, the S3 outlets are designed very specifically for *only* the MMP S3 turbos according to Dusty himself. I assumed they'd fit just fine with the 1Ks, and my shop called me saying they wouldn't fit and when they called Dusty he basically told them they were SOL, wrong outlets. I messaged him on FB after receiving that call because I had talked with him on FB prior and specifically mentioned ordering 1Ks and not wanting to deal with silicone outlets and he didnt mention any fitment issues at that time. He then also told me that he "doesnt officially support them on the 1Ks" since they were designed for the stage 3s, but said one person got them to fit and sent me a screenshot so I hunted him down on FB for guidance.

I dont recall the housing size of the HP800 compared to the S3 or 1K, or if you're also doing the N53 head and larger manifolds but it was apparently a very difficult process and it's very tight clearance wise with the 1Ks at least.

I have PSP outlets on my MMP 1Ks. I had to bend the gouch area in some more to make it fit. I also used the Vibrant Aramid Couplers so they can survive higher temperatures. so gar 3k miles on 20 PSI with the only problem is rubbing sound on let hand turns.

I also bought a set of VTT alum. oulets, thinking about trying to make them fit. Not sure how much of a performance hit going from 2 inches to 1.5 will have.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I have PSP outlets on my MMP 1Ks. I had to bend the gouch area in some more to make it fit. I also used the Vibrant Aramid Couplers so they can survive higher temperatures. so gar 3k miles on 20 PSI with the only problem is rubbing sound on let hand turns.

I also bought a set of VTT alum. oulets, thinking about trying to make them fit. Not sure how much of a performance hit going from 2 inches to 1.5 will have.

Interesting, I was under the impression from Dusty that there was only one or maybe two people who'd gotten them to work. My shop and I were in agreement that it'd be better to return them and get something else if need be if they wouldn't fit without bending or damaging them, but after using a Jack to raise the engine, temporarily moving some stuff up front and then installing in sections with some sliding of outlet parts to get everything in one piece at a time they were able to get them fitted just fine without any modification of the outlets.

I'm not an engineer or very well versed in fluid or airflow dynamics, but I'd doubt even with having to bend them a bit you'd be losing much on flow unless it was a particularly large or sharp bend honestly - especially in comparison to downsized or stock outlets. The general consensus seems to be that our charged air piping on any twins isn't an area of particularly large gains as it is since you have the velocity of air as a positive and the heat from compression as a negative pre-intercooler, and no appreciable gains from the cold side charge pipes other than durability. I could be wrong and I'm sure the VTT outlets are nice, but I'd assume a slightly bent or even slightly dented 2" outlet with a good clean merge would still outperform 1.5" outlets with no bend in regards to the gains that *are* available there.

 

[Davidwarren]

Interesting, I was under the impression from Dusty that there was only one or maybe two people who'd gotten them to work. My shop and I were in agreement that it'd be better to return them and get something else if need be if they wouldn't fit without bending or damaging them, but after using a Jack to raise the engine, temporarily moving some stuff up front and then installing in sections with some sliding of outlet parts to get everything in one piece at a time they were able to get them fitted just fine without any modification of the outlets.

I'm not an engineer or very well versed in fluid or airflow dynamics, but I'd doubt even with having to bend them a bit you'd be losing much on flow unless it was a particularly large or sharp bend honestly - especially in comparison to downsized or stock outlets. The general consensus seems to be that our charged air piping on any twins isn't an area of particularly large gains as it is since you have the velocity of air as a positive and the heat from compression as a negative pre-intercooler, and no appreciable gains from the cold side charge pipes other than durability. I could be wrong and I'm sure the VTT outlets are nice, but I'd assume a slightly bent or even slightly dented 2" outlet with a good clean merge would still outperform 1.5" outlets with no bend in regards to the gains that *are* available there.

There is a video from one of the engine building channels (don’t remember who, sorry) where they look at the impact of denting headers for clearance. It seemed also every time they dented them more, the engine made more power. I know it’s not a direct comparison, but I wouldn’t worry too much about denting the outlets to fit.

 

[Ace718]

There is a video from one of the engine building channels (don’t remember who, sorry) where they look at the impact of denting headers for clearance. It seemed also every time they dented them more, the engine made more power. I know it’s not a direct comparison, but I wouldn’t worry too much about denting the outlets to fit.

That was on an episode of Engine Masters before the MT paywall IIRC.

 

[JBacon335]

So has anything heard anything back from PSP about this screw up? I gotta pull the trigger on a set of outlets and don't know if I should go with VRSF or vargas or maybe even the vargas silicone, that is if they aren't going to melt or burst like the MMP outlets

 

[ShocknAwe]

or maybe even the vargas silicone, that is if they aren't going to melt or burst like the MMP outlets

"They only melt if you installed them wrong or used the wrong oil"

 

[Torgus]

"They only melt if you installed them wrong or used the wrong oil"

Send me your oil sample or no warranty.

 

[Dusty Waterfall]

Alright folks.

Let’s set things straight.

This is not a failed QC or damaged part.
This is A Manufacturing limitation given the bend, clearance and radius of the pipe.

This is a 135 degree 1D bend with very tight clearance. You can not roll 100% of the pipe.

There is a reason we have the only aluminum solution on the planet. It’s incredibly difficult to do.

We have tested it over and over and it performs as intended.

Every MMP STG3 set we have sold looks
Like this. Dozens and dozens of them with zero issues and zero failures.

Our outlets are still meticulously hand made right here in the USA.

The welds, penetration, merge, fit and quality are still unsurpassed.

All of our other outlets feature a cnc reverse cone v-band flange at the turbo connection.

This was a solution based on continued requests from people experiencing failures from silicone.

Again, not one leak or failure has ever been reported.

Can you say the same about silicone?

 

[JBacon335]

Why not roll the bead before welding the pipes together? Wouldn't that be easier and better looking than what we've been seeing

 

[Torgus]

Why not roll the bead before welding the pipes together? Wouldn't that be easier and better looking than what we've been seeing

Yeah that is what I was thinking...or finish the bead up with the method Rob posted above. Just to make it look more uniform etc.

Maybe it's just me but if you are only going to bead 3/4 of it either leave the bead off or get it all the way around however you have to. The PSPs I still think are the best outlet on the market by far regardless.

 

[Dusty Waterfall]

Why not roll the bead before welding the pipes together? Wouldn't that be easier and better looking than what we've been seeing

We do....

It doesn't change the 135 degree 1D bend. That's a 2" CLR on a 2" pipe. The bend hits the bead roller. No way around it. It's just super tight.

We tested this at nauseam pre-production to make sure there wouldn't be any issues. There weren't and aren't any.

The beads function is to hold the silicone on the pipe under pressure and to this respect it functions as intended.

Remember this is only on the MMP STG3 offerings as MMP opted for a silicone seal at the turbo and not a V-band like the OEM or majority of the other aftermarket solutions.

 

[Dusty Waterfall]

show me another manufacturer that goes through the trouble of blending a merge like this... Thatt is two 2" primaries flared and mated perfectly into a 2.5" collector. You just don't see this stuff in mass produced parts, especially at the price point I'm offering these at.