Plugs (95770 v. 97506), gaps, and the N54

matreyia

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  • I don't know if anyone is paying attention to their plugs - but the 95770 have use once double wall aluminum crush washers. I would love someone to debate this. Mine have been in and out several times in 7k miles and I think that's an issue.
  • There should be NO carbon or oil on the crush washer or the head seating area, yet I have it on multi-install 95770s all torque to spec. I would love someone to debate this as well.
  • I prefer the 97506 because I believe
    • unlike the 95770 washer that deforms, the solid copper crush washer doesn't function by geometrically deforming once.
    • 0.8mm deeper into the chamber is a country mile inside of a combustion chamber, and short of getting in the way of the spray pattern, would seem to be a good thing.
    • I'll take the 30% greater ceramic shielding (can't hurt)
Please debate, disagree, call me stupid ... :) ... I'd like the possibility of getting a bit smarter on all of this. And I'd like my timing corrections to drop - I'm pretty sure my setup is at fault.

Filippo
Is there really an advantage to running colder plugs if you are only FBO? I ask this because I have had no issues and great logs for 2+ years running OEM plugs with no gap changes FBO and E40 tune.


I would say, don't change it if it is working for you. I changed mine ONLY due to the fact that I upgraded to BimmerLife Coils. Otherwise, it was running without hiccups or hesitation.
 
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RSL

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If you're indexing, want the ground strap open towards the injector.

Plugs will let you know when they're not happy for gap or heat range. I've had no better luck than the OE S55 plugs, but I run pump only. Stock gap (.031") on hybrids up to 24psi without a misfire on old ass Eldors.

OE BMW plugs (stock, S55, N20) all have the firing tip at the same depth. I've tried plugs even shorter than the 95770s and the car hated them. Distance to injector/combustion mix does matter, as do small gaps in the lean areas.

As for crush washers, I've reinstalled many times and never had a problem. On crush washer plugs, I do hand tight + 90 turn and a little more turn each reinstall. On solid washer plugs, I use a torque wrench. I'm almost positive my original stock plugs had black stuff between the washer and head. As they expand and cool, I imagine anything in the plug wells can walk under it over time.
 

fmorelli

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Is there really an advantage to running colder plugs if you are only FBO? I ask this because I have had no issues and great logs for 2+ years running OEM plugs with no gap changes FBO and E40 tune.
I'm unconvinced that colder plugs is the issue - I don't believe it is. It's all the other stuff I talk about that I believe is the issue. Hoping to get feedback on that.

Filippo
 

fmorelli

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As for crush washers, I've reinstalled many times and never had a problem. On crush washer plugs, I do hand tight + 90 turn and a little more turn each reinstall. On solid washer plugs, I use a torque wrench. I'm almost positive my original stock plugs had black stuff between the washer and head. As they expand and cool, I imagine anything in the plug wells can walk under it over time.
Lots of good feedback, but I want to focus on this last part. Just to provide more info - my engine compartment one can eat out of. The shafts are perfectly clean, except by the washer seat. The head spark plug seating area has not only oil but also carbon which carb cleaner wouldn't remove - I had to scrape gently with a screwdriver at the head spark plug seating surface, and wire brush the washers on the plugs to get it off (nylon bristle brush wouldn't do it). Plugs have always been torqued at 17 ft lbs factory spec. I'm pretty certain what I'm seeing is coming from the combustion chamber, not the plug wells.

Thanks for the comments in your post ... good info!

Filippo
 

matreyia

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Lots of good feedback, but I want to focus on this last part. Just to provide more info - my engine compartment one can eat out of. The shafts are perfectly clean, except by the washer seat. The head spark plug seating area has not only oil but also carbon which carb cleaner wouldn't remove - I had to scrape gently with a screwdriver at the head spark plug seating surface, and wire brush the washers on the plugs to get it off (nylon bristle brush wouldn't do it). Plugs have always been torqued at 17 ft lbs factory spec. I'm pretty certain what I'm seeing is coming from the combustion chamber, not the plug wells.

Thanks for the comments in your post ... good info!

Filippo


Hmmm combustion chamber leaking into outer plug perimeter sounds serious. That would definitely cause oscillations when flooring it I would imagine.

I will do a test with ngk without gapping and see if the BL coils are sufficient to power them for normal intervals.

I went ahead and epoxied the metal nipple I
On the intake manifold in case there was a leak there. Also replace hpfp and all fuel sensors. Will find out in the morning if this will fix oscillations wot from highway speed.
 
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RSL

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Lots of good feedback, but I want to focus on this last part. Just to provide more info - my engine compartment one can eat out of. The shafts are perfectly clean, except by the washer seat. The head spark plug seating area has not only oil but also carbon which carb cleaner wouldn't remove - I had to scrape gently with a screwdriver at the head spark plug seating surface, and wire brush the washers on the plugs to get it off (nylon bristle brush wouldn't do it). Plugs have always been torqued at 17 ft lbs factory spec. I'm pretty certain what I'm seeing is coming from the combustion chamber, not the plug wells.

Thanks for the comments in your post ... good info!

Filippo
I've always been more nervous about cleaning anything out of there and possibly dropping something into the cylinder that may score a wall if it got stuck on the side of a piston. I use a small vacuum attachment to pull up anything that might be loose in the wells, but that's as far as I go. Frankly, never given much thought to what it was, but do know exactly what you're talking about.

Carbon/soot will come out on the lower threads, but the section in the head is always clean, so I've never really considered it leaks through there. If there are any cracks in the porcelain above the plug body, arcing could be dropping debris down too I suppose. If the insulator separates from the body, it could allow combustion through as well.

I've seen people have issues from not torquing enough too. Either not tight enough from first install or wind up being loose enough to take out with fingers a couple weeks/months later. Bad ground, bad seal.

FWIW, I never use anti-seize.

I actually have a new set of S55 plugs coming Monday, so I'll take a closer look at how much is on the taper/gaskets when I pull the old plugs.
 

fmorelli

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Interesting. Thanks. I use Wurth CU 800 - aluminum and steel never a good thing. People commonly have a valve cover leak, from reading forums, but I have oil and carbon residue on all the plugs, and there is no oil pooling or anything. Just slightly wet threads all the way up the plug, also coating the washer faces, and the smallest amount of wetness and carbon buildup at the head plug seat. No leaky gaskets. I'm super suspicious about the double wall aluminum crush washer - its function is two-fold - to provide a seal and to help keep the plug from loosening in that environment. I'm convincing myself that the aluminum crush washer is use once. I don't ever recall this kind of issue on my NA cars ... but ...

Filippo
 
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matreyia

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Interesting. Thanks. I use Wurth CU 800 - aluminum and steel never a good thing. People commonly have a valve cover leak, from reading forums, but I have oil and carbon residue on all the plugs, and there is no oil pooling or anything. Just slightly wet threads all the way up the plug, also coating the washer faces, and the smallest amount of wetness and carbon buildup at the head plug seat. No leaky gaskets. I'm super suspicious about the double wall aluminum crush washer - its function is two-fold - to provide a seal and to help keep the plug from loosening in that environment. I'm convincing myself that the aluminum crush washer is use once. I don't ever recall this kind of issue on my NA cars ... but ...

Filippo

If you have fuel pooling around your plug base, then it is either a leaky plug seal or leaky injector seeping fuel there.
That would be my guess. And it would explain any oscillations. Leaky plug seals leaking out air and wasting fuel...would definitely cause oscillations...especially high throttle.

My update: changed HPFP, HPFS, LPFS, changed the BOV vacuume hose to larger diameter than Tial hose. Drove to work this morning...car feels more responsive. But have not pushed her yet. Will do so and then change to stock bmw 3 prong plugs and do the same, then change to NGK gapped to .022 and do the same, then change to NGK stock gap of .031 and do the same and report on response/power delivery.

VT
 

fmorelli

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For now I decided to install the original NGK 95770 plugs @ 18 ft lbs, a bit of CU 800 anti-seize. I gapped to 0.022" and doubled checked all the plugs with a friction fit on the feeler gauge. Everything was completely cleaned with carb cleaner and acetone, including the head spark plug mating surface, male and female threads. I will see if we continue with timing correction issues, and pull the plugs in a bit to see if the oil/carbon issue presents.

I see a lot of forum discussions around timing corrections with little conclusive evidence - from "it's just normal" to #5 has significant corrections because of (several reasons given). Carbon deposits where I mentioned is not good news ... and I would not be surprised if most people never noticed it.

Filippo
 
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matreyia

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For now I decided to install the original NGK 95770 plugs @ 18 ft lbs, a bit of CU 800 anti-seize. I gapped to 0.022" and doubled checked all the plugs with a friction fit on the feeler gauge. Everything was completely cleaned with carb cleaner and acetone, including the head spark plug mating surface, male and female threads. I will see if we continue with timing correction issues, and pull the plugs in a bit to see if the oil/carbon issue presents.

I see a lot of forum discussions around timing corrections with little conclusive evidence - from "it's just normal" to #5 has significant corrections because of (several reasons given). Carbon deposits where I mentioned is not good news ... and I would not be surprised if most people never noticed it.

Filippo


Why are you using anti-seize? That would render your torque wrench values useless, and would leave you open to loosening of the plugs even easier than it already loosens without anti-seize.
 
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NoQuarter

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Torque values aren't absolute I would say. Of course the spec is based on dry fasteners but they are also based on new fasteners. In reality, many bolts go into a hole that is no longer perfectly dry or is more rough/corroded, etc. and if the fastener itself is not perfect then the spec torque value is more of a guideline.

In other words, one has to use judgement when fastening by torque values based on the current conditions.

All that is to say, applying a lubricant can make a more consistent environment and the rule of thumb for lubricated fasteners is -25% torque value.

Personally, I don't always use anti seize on my plugs, but if I have some going in all squeaky and catching and overall just being a bit rough in the threads I lube that thing right up.

Edit: To clarify, if one can clean all the surfaces and make the hole threads nice and clean and dry then this is the preferred method. If one has less than ideal conditions then one has to adapt torque values.
 
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NoQuarter

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Interesting. No wonder everyone seems to have conflicting opinions on such things. Sometimes it is required, Sometimes not, and sometimes it just helps. For example, I install plugs by hand with a rubber vacuum hose - no danger of cross threading.
But if a particular plug is a bit sticky and won't screw in nice and smooth, a dab of anti-seize smoothes it right out.
 

matreyia

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Interesting. No wonder everyone seems to have conflicting opinions on such things. Sometimes it is required, Sometimes not, and sometimes it just helps. For example, I install plugs by hand with a rubber vacuum hose - no danger of cross threading.
But if a particular plug is a bit sticky and won't screw in nice and smooth, a dab of anti-seize smoothes it right out.

I think that different manufacturers require different methods. Some recommend anti-seize and some warn against it. BMW specifically states NOT to use anti-seize on spark plugs. That's why I was curious on anyone using anti-seize on BMW e9x engines. I have never used it and never had a problem with threads. They squeek going in but never stick. And if they ever stick...I would recommend carefully cleaning the thread holes instead of relying on anti-seize as a solution.
 

Cheezy

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My 2cents on indexing plugs first- with the n54 direct injection and piezo style injectors, you will never have spark blow out from the injectors, so ground strap should not face the intake valves, instead you want them to face the opposite way so that ignition begins at the front of air/fuel mixture and propegates downward instead of away from the mixture and expands towards the intake then downwards. That creates an uneven pressure wave and creates knock. With that being said, I have had my plugs indexed the complete wrong way for a while now, this may be the cause for timing corrections on my car.
Continuing with black soot, I also have that when I removed my plugs, didn't think too much of it, figured it's from combustion chamber and just comes up with the very bottom threads. I never use anti seize. I torque between 16-19ftlbs if it helps me achieve indexing, which brings me to the next point that I hope these conical seat washers on 95770 are not one time use. in order to index a plug you must first install it to see where the ground strap sits then remove it and add the appropriate sized washer to spin the plug. I usually mark the top of insulator with a sharpie to get a sense of direction. This sometimes results in multiple remove and replace cycles of one plug.
 

RSL

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Interesting. Thanks. I use Wurth CU 800 - aluminum and steel never a good thing. People commonly have a valve cover leak, from reading forums, but I have oil and carbon residue on all the plugs, and there is no oil pooling or anything. Just slightly wet threads all the way up the plug, also coating the washer faces, and the smallest amount of wetness and carbon buildup at the head plug seat. No leaky gaskets. I'm super suspicious about the double wall aluminum crush washer - its function is two-fold - to provide a seal and to help keep the plug from loosening in that environment. I'm convincing myself that the aluminum crush washer is use once. I don't ever recall this kind of issue on my NA cars ... but ...

Filippo
They probably are technically single use, but then again, so are copper/aluminum washers on oil drain plugs and banjo fittings. I've reused crush washers several times on many connections on many cars without issue, including plugs. I used to read plugs at least once a night at the track and went several times a month for several months on the same plugs. The same plugs/crush washers were in and out probably 10-15 times with no problems. Not saying it's ideal, but reusing plugs isn't anything I'd remotely consider automatically problematic.

Thread chaser is "right way" to go, but if I ever have any that seem a bit sticky going in, I'll dab a drop of simple 3-in-1 oil on the lower threads.

If you have fuel pooling around your plug base, then it is either a leaky plug seal or leaky injector seeping fuel there.
That would be my guess. And it would explain any oscillations. Leaky plug seals leaking out air and wasting fuel...would definitely cause oscillations...especially high throttle.

My update: changed HPFP, HPFS, LPFS, changed the BOV vacuume hose to larger diameter than Tial hose. Drove to work this morning...car feels more responsive. But have not pushed her yet. Will do so and then change to stock bmw 3 prong plugs and do the same, then change to NGK gapped to .022 and do the same, then change to NGK stock gap of .031 and do the same and report on response/power delivery.

VT
Just for the record, the only plugs I've been able to get away with the default gap on are the S55 plugs. 95770s had to be smaller (.024 IIRC) and 97506s the smallest at .020 IIRC, to avoid misfires on the same tune...and that's on straight 93. I've always been of the mindset to run the biggest gap you can no matter what, though most people will just gap to .018-.022 and be done with it. Not really a problem, but idling may suffer and those have always seemed like ridiculously small gaps to me.

For now I decided to install the original NGK 95770 plugs @ 18 ft lbs, a bit of CU 800 anti-seize. I gapped to 0.022" and doubled checked all the plugs with a friction fit on the feeler gauge. Everything was completely cleaned with carb cleaner and acetone, including the head spark plug mating surface, male and female threads. I will see if we continue with timing correction issues, and pull the plugs in a bit to see if the oil/carbon issue presents.

I see a lot of forum discussions around timing corrections with little conclusive evidence - from "it's just normal" to #5 has significant corrections because of (several reasons given). Carbon deposits where I mentioned is not good news ... and I would not be surprised if most people never noticed it.

Filippo
Some are normal obviously, but more often than not, I think it's tune, change in fuel, temps, etc. Not sure what tune you run, but seems many people these days don't tune themselves or even pay for custom. When running OTS maps, you're stuck with what they give you. Target too much, DME will take out what it doesn't like. Many are really opposed to reducing timing target and simply dumping E85 or adding meth to keep it, but since I run pump only, makes more sense to me to drop target 0.5-1° if it keeps the DME from pulling 3° out instead (if other all adjustments didn't stop it). Either way, I personally wouldn't ever expect plugs/gaps to do much of anything to alleviate timing corrections.
 

matreyia

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Just for the record, the only plugs I've been able to get away with the default gap on are the S55 plugs. 95770s had to be smaller (.024 IIRC) ...that's on straight 93. ...

I have .026 NGK 95770 with Bimmerlife Coils. Are you running Bimmerlife Coils? I read in a couple of places that BL coils can withstand NGK 95770 out of the box with no gapping at .031 . ...that is why I am going to give it a try. I am under the impression that you will have better fuel economy when you find the largest gap for any particular plug model. I hope this is correctly understood. If so, I wonder why anyone would want to gap so small if they can accommodate bigger gaps.
 

RSL

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I have .026 NGK 95770 with Bimmerlife Coils. Are you running Bimmerlife Coils? I read in a couple of places that BL coils can withstand NGK 95770 out of the box with no gapping at .031 . ...that is why I am going to give it a try. I am under the impression that you will have better fuel economy when you find the largest gap for any particular plug model. I hope this is correctly understood. If so, I wonder why anyone would want to gap so small if they can accommodate bigger gaps.
I'm on Eldors with about 50k miles on them. I just don't have ignition issues many other seem to have, so if it not broken, I'm not going to fix it.

Most probably don't even try. Interwebz says .018-.022, so that's what most probably set it at and dump them in.

Some VANOS, fueling, timing and torque request is most effective for fuel economy, but largest gap is always best.