Oil restrictions / larger drains for journal bearing twin turbos

[Rob@RBTurbo]

If Tony has stated that restrictors are not necessary in this application then I'd agree. The only exception to this could be the design of your specific cartridges, ie. if they are not to proper MHI spec, then a restrictor could help correct that issue. MHI cartridges are restricted by design. See post #11.

 

[chadillac2000]

So again, what is the reasoning that these few select turbos need assistance draining when tens of thousands of others are draining fine with no smoke?

 

[veer90]

So again, what is the reasoning that these few select turbos need assistance draining when tens of thousands of others are draining fine with no smoke?

Not every motor is going to produce the *exact* same oil pressure, crankcase pressures (esp. with worn rings on higher mileage motors), have the drains in exactly the same shape, etc etc.

That combined with the fact the drain design was just barely sufficient to begin with. Hell, that's the case with a lot of components on the motor - the engineers said "fuck it good enough"

 

[chadillac2000]

Not every motor is going to produce the *exact* same oil pressure, crankcase pressures (esp. with worn rings on higher mileage motors), have the drains in exactly the same shape, etc etc.

That combined with the fact the drain design was just barely sufficient to begin with. Hell, that's the case with a lot of components on the motor - the engineers said "fuck it good enough"

But aren't you only supporting Tony's argument of supplying a band-aid for another underlying problem?

Sounds like you've just described a motor with worn rings or damaged drains causing the issues, not the drain design themselves.

 

[veer90]

But aren't you only supporting Tony's argument of supplying a band-aid for another underlying problem?

Sounds like you've just described a motor with worn rings or damaged drains causing the issues, not the drain design themselves.

Yes and no. One motor may make 70 psi oil pressure, another may make 80. Just accept that each one has a mind of their own lol

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

As long as all of the turbos are built to the same specs (which means the same components and same balancing) while only a couple vehicles have the issue (out of hundreds upon hundreds)... it obviously is an anomaly with the couple vehicles affected. These couple engines could have bent rods, bad valve stem seals and/or valve guides, high cylinder leak down rates, to name a few more likelihoods over needing restrictors. Some are seeing injector related issues as well as part of their "smoke", not turbos, this could also be the underlying factor (oil consumption rates and/or smoke odor is usually the giveaway there).

Rob

 

[fmorelli]

Actually, I'm amazed at the power these stock drivetrains can put out over what the factory puts out. The internals of the N54, on a well-tuned motor, seem to handle 2x rated power without issue. If running the DCT, they seem happy. The stock clutches hold pretty well to 450whp or so, it seems, and more on the 335is equipped MTs. Stock injectors, ignition, half shafts, diffs, etc all seem to do fine unless one abuses the daylights out of them. And many of these cars have 100k miles on them and people are spanking crazy horsepower out of the cars. Hell screw the horsepower. These motors generate gobs of torque, especially with tuned hybrids, that beat the snot out of the drivetrain at low RPMs. It's actually quite impressive. If that's fuck it, good enough, I'd say that's about right.

Filippo

 

[langsbr]

Tony has ripped into me in this thread for bringing this up as a point of discussion saying he has done all the testing necessary and that his word is the final word...

You mean like when he tested cams and said they were pieces of shit and don't work at all? Or how the Dragy is a toy but totally useless because it's not accurate?

Remember when inlets where invented by TFT, Tony ripped that idea too and said it was not required and did not produce all that extra power no way and he had tested everything and he knew all and we needed just to follow what he says.

LOL I'm glad I wasn't misremembering that! We need terms for these scenarios - "The camshaft debacle", "inlet denying days", "dogging the dragy" I'm sure there are more.

 

[veer90]

Actually, I'm amazed at the power these stock drivetrains can put out over what the factory puts out. The internals of the N54, on a well-tuned motor, seem to handle 2x rated power without issue. If running the DCT, they seem happy. The stock clutches hold pretty well to 450whp or so, it seems, and more on the 335is equipped MTs. Stock injectors, ignition, half shafts, diffs, etc all seem to do fine unless one abuses the daylights out of them. And many of these cars have 100k miles on them and people are spanking crazy horsepower out of the cars. Hell screw the horsepower. These motors generate gobs of torque, especially with tuned hybrids, that beat the snot out of the drivetrain at low RPMs. It's actually quite impressive. If that's fuck it, good enough, I'd say that's about right.

Filippo

Funny because I had issues with basically everything you listed that's applicable to my car. Bought it stock except an intake at 80k and I broke/fixed a lot of shit.

1. roasted the stock clutch a week after I went FBO at 82k
2. original index 7s quit at 90k
3. broke an axle at 99k
4. didn't have ignition or diff problems but switched them out anyways because the stock stuff sucks

5. oh and I spun the hub

This is excluding all the usual N54 crap I did like water pump, serpentine belt, valve cover, hpfp, etc. Everything except 1. and 3. are the direct result of bmw shitty engineering decisions.

That is what I meant. Some engineer at BMW on a Friday afternoon slapped together something in whatever design program they use for the turbo drains, said "fuck it good enough" and left for the weekend.

 

[9krpmrx8]

Oil pressure to the turbo is something I don't think is properly considered when using various aftermarket turbos.

It's not really comparable but this is the setup I created for my Turbo RX-8 since I was going thru turbos way too fast and I was convinced it was due to excessive oil pressure (120psi at redline). The Greddy turbos were dying on average in about 10,000 miles and people tried every type of restrictor, etc. This was the intial setup for testing and it has been a couple of years and the turbo has outlasted the previous two by 20,000 miles and so far so good. My reasoning for thinking the oil pressure was killing the turbos was from some information I read in a book. Don't make fun of my MS paint diagram, :lol:.

 

[Torgus]

You mean like when he tested cams and said they were pieces of shit and don't work at all? Or how the Dragy is a toy but totally useless because it's not accurate?



LOL I'm glad I wasn't misremembering that! We need terms for these scenarios - "The camshaft debacle", "inlet denying days", "dogging the dragy" I'm sure there are more.

The list is amazing long honestly. HPFP scam, oil analysis or you get no warranty, bounty program where only positive reviews get paid money, restocking fee on canceled orders before they ship, taking thousands of $ to design and develop stage 3 turbos and refusing customer refunds. That is just off the top of my head. I'm sure the real list is 10x as long.

Oh and he beats women.

 

[doublespaces]

I had a lengthy conversation today about how I'm not going to edit, delete or move this post since we don't have strict non-vendor member behavior rules. But this really adds absolutely zero value to the thread and its safe to say that puts you on the same level as tony on his bad days. Just a trash post for Jerry Springer. Tony's account has received an infraction for his word choices over the last few days. Please do not continue to bring the worst out of people by making these comments, this is not e90post or the other place. Most people don't give a hoot about you or Tony, they just want to know whats going on with these oil drains.

There are a few people on this board, like @Aaron who post absolutely nothing but complaining, whining and shit posting. I'm going to delete those people in good time. They don't care, nor do I. This forum is for intelligent people to share intelligent things, not for one company to fight another company and get even or for one person to show everyone how much they dislike someone. That is absolute crap and a waste of my time answering these reports. MMP has received an infraction for violation of the Vendor Rules as well. Instead of responding to attacks with more attacks and then saying we shouldn't attack, he should have just left it alone and reported any offending posts to me. The lesson here is to keep other people out of your damn mouth.

Everyone, please. Add some value or get the fuck off the board.

 

[doublespaces]

As an update, VTT will not be participating on this forum any longer, largely due to this thread. I'll be enforcing the rules as they are currently written, hopefully everyone takes this seriously. This was a mutual decision as we could not come to an agreement on how this forum should be operated. I contend that it should be operated by me, my rules are subject to change as they evolve and as I find the limits of their effectiveness, I'll adjust them.

 

[veer90]

tony_irl

 

[suspenceful]

Wasn't this forum their "go-to" safe-haven? They pretty much ditched all other forums for this one, referring to it as their "exclusive" spot to release products, update stuff, etc. Looks like they've burned all their bridges at this point.

 

[mfractal]

This forum is better off without his negativity.

 

[langsbr]

This is disappointing. As much as Tony rages on forums, he really does test a lot. It's sad that it is affecting the entirety of VTT, as Chris did well at improving VTT's image.

On the topic of oil drains - RB recommends them on TD04 CHRAs, and MMP uses TD04s as well. GCs are TD04 as well right? What about the stock frame housings they offered? Were they TD04s as well, or still TD03s? if TD03s, that may lead to why they don't feel they are necessary.

 

[Torgus]

On the topic of oil drains - RB recommends them on TD04 CHRAs, and MMP uses TD04s as well. GCs are TD04 as well right? What about the stock frame housings they offered? Were they TD04s as well, or still TD03s? if TD03s, that may lead to why they don't feel they are necessary.

IIRC on stock exhaust housing n54 upgraded frame turbos only RB(and I think ASR but no one bought them) used TD04 vs everyone else using the significantly cheaper and less robust TD03s as a cost saving measure. You can make the same power with either CHRA from my understanding. So going with the TD03 gives you a product you can sell at a lower price than RB. Hence why Hexon, VTT, etc. offered less expensive upgraded turbos.

I speculate that the TD03s had a higher rate of failure when the larger wheels were put on them vs the TD04 with the same upgraded larger wheels.

Given the cost of the turbos and the time and or cost of the install, upgraded turbo drains are a no brainer. At the very least buy new OEM but even then, why bother, when an upgrade is available for such small money?

I'm sure Rob can chime in here and clarify the TD03/04.

 

[Rob@RBTurbo]

This is disappointing. As much as Tony rages on forums, he really does test a lot. It's sad that it is affecting the entirety of VTT, as Chris did well at improving VTT's image.

On the topic of oil drains - RB recommends them on TD04 CHRAs, and MMP uses TD04s as well. GCs are TD04 as well right? What about the stock frame housings they offered? Were they TD04s as well, or still TD03s? if TD03s, that may lead to why they don't feel they are necessary.

They do not feel they are necessary because they do not offer them. Eventually they will and at that point they of course will recommend them. Stifling any competitive product/concept/idea/etc is not exactly a new thing for the man operating this company. Simple breakdown here: Are the mandatory? No. Are they recommended? Yes.

Regarding the TD03 vs. TD04 aspect: TD04 cartridges have larger journal bearings, so firstly they are going to move a bit more oil. Secondly it is compounded by a TD04 center section being a larger at all corners, thus the OE oil drain lines can be a bit more "tweaked" when fitting them due to this- which can lead to larger chances of kinks. In short if there is a kink obviously do something about it, buying an aftermarket drain maybe needed if even a healthy OE drain will not work (this is most notably encountered on the front turbo due to its positioning/design).

Summary: We recommend them for TD04 (mostly), sure, but not everyone opts for them... and if they do not we do not mandate it and it is not seeming to cause any immediate issues. Longer term however we believe it could have some effects and this is some relatively cheap insurance (offered to our competitors' customers at $190).

Rob

 

[langsbr]

I'll be honest Rob - you nailed it on the head when you said you don't advertise enough. I had no idea you had a TD04 option, similar to MMPs. The MMPs are using a full TD04 CHRA and that was appealing. I also wasn't aware you had a 19T option, but is the compressor housing a full 19T as well, or just the wheel?