What about evo turbos aka hydra I'm banking on them lasting a long time I'll def report back
Expired NEW PURE N54 UPGRADE TURBOS **NO CORE CHARGE**
- Thread starter Mike @ XPH
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You mean they don't make 400-1000HP as claimed?! Shocking
How many single turbo setups are making 800+ without cams & headwork?
Looks like MMP has gotten back to reality and now advertise their gen 2 MMP cast turbos as 700whp max:
"Dyno results you should expect:
at 13psi - 478whp
at 17psi - 500whp
at 21psi - 575whp
at 27psi - 675whp
at 30psi - 700whp
With Stage 3 LPFP and Port Injection it can support 700whp maxed out"
The Gen 2 use larger wheels from my understanding so they should output more than the MMP cast gen 1s. If 700whp is the max on the gen 2 it makes sense that the highest mmp gen 1 dyno I have seen was right around 650whp, which makes sense. Again, far from the advertised 400-1000HP turbos.
What would be nice if twin turbo vendors would list the lb/min like every other fucking turbo on the planet. Then you can basically figure out what they will produce. And yes, even worked(aka shove large wheels in small housings) factory turbos on other platforms do this.
As far as single turbos a 6466 100% E85 can basically hit 800whp with no head or cams. There have been enough results posted I believe, my guess is most people have the build their engine at get there and it is pricey so you see less examples. The 6466 is listed as 900hp and flows 90 lb/min. So after drive train loss etc. 800whp seems very doable on E85 PI.
@Veere90 did 786 on a 6266 no cams or head work right? So a slightly larger 6466 should of hit 800whp on his set up. Just as an example. I mean he was 14hp away from the 800 mark. That is so small, like a 1.5% change on the dyno he could of hit 800. Slightly cooler day, tiny change in the tune, one more run after a cool down, almost anything could of made that run 800whp. 1.5% difference.
You can always use a larger turbo than a 6266/6466 to hit 800whp or above, you will just have a smaller power band.
edit: Here is a thread posted today by Payam where he says he thinks they could of hit 800whp on a 6266: https://bmw.spoolstreet.com/threads/doc-race-6266-dyno.4215/#post-66489
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Those are the same power numbers that have always been listed for the MMP Stage 3s. The new "Gen2s" are just the MMP Stage 3s with the 1K housings, but with smaller 43/43 wheels for faster spool.
The 1Ks are the "legacy S3 wheels" with the cast housings.
You seem to be ignoring a lot of MMP (it's ok, you don't seem to like any TT vendor
) but one thing I always liked about Mauricio is his data based approach, and he has ALWAYS listed flow rates. Granted, perhaps not in his marketing materials - but come on - that would apply to you and me. Every other schlub wants SUPERDYNOPOWERSS.If you look back at some of Mauricios posts on a different forum, he covered everything he did during development, with theory, to practice, and what worked, and what didn't. If I recall, he rates the S3s at 35lb/min. Which, on E85, with twins - would be 700WHPish. I think @veer90 did 690 on his MMPs, so that's right at the limit. They were maxed, and obviously didn't last for him. Those numbers were on the original S3s though, not the 1Ks with a bigger A/R.
I don't like the conjecture of a 6466 "should" make more on his setup. Yes, he was only 14whp away and that's awesome on a 6266, but he also admitted to pushing it - it was pretty much maxxed. I've never understood the whole, if you're goal is xxx, size for xxx+100. Are we driving hondas? Turbos are a compromise, and you will always sacrifice one thing to gain another. I chose MMPs because I was willing to sacrifice ultimate max power for a more responsive and better torque curve. Some people want big peak numbers, and don't care about lower rpm power, and that's fine. That's what makes this hobby fun.
You know what was boring? The 90s when every tool had a 5.0 mustang with intake, header, exhaust, and 3.73s. Oh cool - everyone had the SAME CAR with the SAME mods. BORING.
Yes stock head / cams / valvetrain etc. My run was SAE corrected which should account for temperature and pressure differences. What will make 800 is if I keep advancing timing above 5000 rpm where tq was dropping and the motor picks up accordingly (MBT).
STD corrected would be over 800 but that CF is much more generous.
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You seem to be ignoring a lot of MMP (it's ok, you don't seem to like any TT vendor
Just my $0.02 on the "data based approach" part... I recently found out Mauricio's injector flow rates were fudged to look better for marketing purposes.
His gen 2 port injectors are marketed as 1000cc. BMP port injectors are marketed as 750cc. Injector Duty Cycle %'s up top are the exact same on the base maps for both setups. What gives?
Turns out Mauricio flow tests the injectors at 72.5 psi vs BMP which tests theirs at a much more realistic 43.5 psi (look up the respective cal certs on the listings for both PI kits). Yes 72.5 psi is the fuel pressure for an N54 however under boost the effective injection pressure (delta P across the injector) is fuel pressure minus boost pressure. Which means both injectors flow the same and BMP's rating is a much more realistic indication of real world performance.
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Ok, a 6466 will make more than a 6266, it is a larger turbo
Thank you for the clarification on the new MMP offering.
I don't hate on all TT
Pure and RB seem to do well and you almost never hear of a failure. But in general I dislike them on this platform because of their reliability. Or maybe it's just the perception of their reliability hearing about all the failures etc. Fuck a warranty, given the labor either DIY or paying a shop to do the job twice and the car downtime just seems horrific. Having to send back your units for failure analysis before they will ship you warranty replacements? Or like Veer's example 2 months of down time because they do not have any replacement CHRAs in stock? Can you imagine the cost if this was your only vehicle and you had to rent a car for 2 months and then pay a shop twice to install, remove, install? That could be 4k easy no turbos involved.I agree with you 100% different strokes for different folks. It is nice everyone has options for their goals. It would be very boring if everyone was the same.
This is confusing the hell out of me. What is the difference between these $2.2k turbos vs. the $4k highflow 700hp turbos?
Am I missing something? No other description...other than no core charge... what, is it some journal vs. ball bearing technology or something? I have spent hours scouring the net for some info on the differences in price and still don't know.
VT
Am I missing something? No other description...other than no core charge... what, is it some journal vs. ball bearing technology or something? I have spent hours scouring the net for some info on the differences in price and still don't know.
VT
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Stock manifolds require machining which is labor intensive. Aftermarket castings are much cheaper and require less involvement.
I would be shocked if Pure were using any different chras or wheels on these. Also, there is in general a price reduction due to competition in the market. Frankenturbo is now 1500 with metal outlets. As the barriers to entry in to a market lower, so does ultimate margin. Can any hybrid turbos justify a 4400 price tag now?
I would be shocked if Pure were using any different chras or wheels on these. Also, there is in general a price reduction due to competition in the market. Frankenturbo is now 1500 with metal outlets. As the barriers to entry in to a market lower, so does ultimate margin. Can any hybrid turbos justify a 4400 price tag now?
So you think Pure just reselling Chinese turbos?
This would be my best guess- The Manifold attached to Turbine housing, compressor housing and I would go so far to say even the center housing (seeing as they don't need any cores) is all chinesium. I would think Pure just replaced the internals aka Turbine shaft and wheel, compressor wheel, thrust bearing ect ect along with a VSR balance and cut cost buy a big margin. Now the cost of these are $1,980 and would not be surprised if they went even lower given all the options and everybody is going the same route.
I figured Pure is using their own CHRA, but they've never disclosed/advertised what CHRA or wheel sizes they use. I'm sure someone knows if they are TD03 or TD04 though.
Buying manifolds/turbine housings that don't need machining can cut a lot of the cost out. They surely don't make the margins they did on regular PS2s, considering they are half the cost. But think of it this way - a set of OEM cores is what, $150 on the cheap end? Then they have to machine it for bigger wheels, install new wastegates, etc. Wastegate parts alone are probably $50 per turbo, and machining is time intensive even if they can do it in house. Buy a chinaframe with wastegates thats already set for the size wheel for $150 - boom done. Slap in your CHRA and wheels and away you go. Forego the expected $1500 margin and be happy with $1000 and try to make up the difference in volume.
The aliexpress turbos are under $1000 for the pair, Frankenturbo is selling his with outlets for $1500. A set of Dorman reman'd chinaframes is something like $750. Cost has to be around $300 or less in volume - so there is still plenty of margin to be made.
Buying manifolds/turbine housings that don't need machining can cut a lot of the cost out. They surely don't make the margins they did on regular PS2s, considering they are half the cost. But think of it this way - a set of OEM cores is what, $150 on the cheap end? Then they have to machine it for bigger wheels, install new wastegates, etc. Wastegate parts alone are probably $50 per turbo, and machining is time intensive even if they can do it in house. Buy a chinaframe with wastegates thats already set for the size wheel for $150 - boom done. Slap in your CHRA and wheels and away you go. Forego the expected $1500 margin and be happy with $1000 and try to make up the difference in volume.
The aliexpress turbos are under $1000 for the pair, Frankenturbo is selling his with outlets for $1500. A set of Dorman reman'd chinaframes is something like $750. Cost has to be around $300 or less in volume - so there is still plenty of margin to be made.
Pure has always used a TD03 CHRA. While reliable they were very expensive for what they were.
I believe most including Pure have used Chinese made parts from the start. That is not my concern. My concern is quality control on the metallurgy of the housings.
Hmm that's kinda a generalization I don't think is true and there is no way you will even know the metallurgy of any housing unless you take your oem turbos and send them out. It's no wonder Sub 1k VSR balanced china turbos is so temping to so many people.
It would be nice if Pure or even @Mike @ XPH who is pushing them would chime in but only crickets.
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