N54 Cooling - Temp Control Logic and what are your temps during extended track use?
- Thread starter barry@3DM
- Start date
- Got 2x Setrab 19 rows in.
- Castrol 5w-40
- Questionable mechanic says dump/flush coolant 50/50. So I diluted it to about 80% water assuming it was actually 50% (it looks like oil in a clear plastic bottle tbh, it's that dark so I don't believe the 50/50).
- Completed about 122 laps on a 2,2km circuit - not all out. Some cooldown laps in between since the tyres need them to come back.
https://datazap.me/u/gmx/bmw-1m-v5?log=0&data=3-24
Didn't log day 2 with even lower ambients of 7-8C ambient. But on dials/MHD gauges they were 115C
My question is OT; what oil are you track guys running? Esp @Asbjorn where you have to drive / start in cold weather to and from track?
Although this log only contains 9mins of pushing, it is so nice to see coolant stay below 100C for once. It is good to know that your setup is indeed "track-ready" at around 10C / 50F ambient.
My only advice when it comes to engine oil is changing it often, and keeping it above 100C in daily driving to burn off the water. But I have no proof to back up these statements.
I usually just run gold mobil 1 0w40 and change it often. Also tried pakelo racing and full bore racing oil to see if they would lower engine temps. Not really. I know some racers will say we should go with W50 and what not. My turbo vendor says W40 full synthetic. Not sure what BMW uses for the M4 GT4, but the GTS just uses standard engine oil. Below link shows that the GT4 runs standard bmw 50/50 coolant, while brake fluid is indeed special:
-SRF RACING
Source
RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog
BMW parts MS BMW Motorsport M4 GT4 Engine oil / maintenance service
www.realoem.com
I believe the srf racing brake fuild with high dry boiling point is the best for race cars where you change it often, while endless might be the best for track-day cars due to the high wet boiling point.
Here is a temp log from the end of a 20 min session in about 85 degree weather. Stays around 210-220. I run straight distilled water with water wetter, CSF rad, mhd sport cooling, no a/c, vented hood. I’m running liqui-moly oil 5/40 with two setrab 625 coolers, and of course SRF.
Attachments
What is SRF?
Apparently your iats in 85F ambeient are lower than what @gmx saw in 50F ambient. This tells me you were not pushing super hard? Either that or you are running water injection?
I believe we already know that a setup with CSF + 100% water + two oil coolers has no chance of keeping a tuned N54 cool if you really push it in +70F ambient. If you have proof that such a setup can actually handle +85F all out on track for more than five minutes I would really love to see it on datazap. And by "handle" - lets just say keeping coolant temps below 220F.
I was asking you, sir, and purely from a scientific stand point. I don't know what SRF is, and I don't know how you enjoy your track driving. How much and how long you push matters alot as to what temps the engine develops. Different tracks also have limits as to how much you can push.
SRF brake fluid, he means.
I will be on track on sunday and maybe have the opportunity to log a session. Propably it will be above 25°C.
I run the following setup:
OEM Oil Cooler with additional Custom Oil cooler in the driver wheel well and external thermostat
CSF Radiator with Water Wetter and distilled water
MHD Track Settings for the Water Pump
HP650 @ 17PSI (maybe going to do a tune with a few PSI less).
First trackday with bigger additional oil cooler, the CSF and the water wetter/only dist. water- im excited to see what my temps will say.
Will keep you informed.
I will be on track on sunday and maybe have the opportunity to log a session. Propably it will be above 25°C.
I run the following setup:
OEM Oil Cooler with additional Custom Oil cooler in the driver wheel well and external thermostat
CSF Radiator with Water Wetter and distilled water
MHD Track Settings for the Water Pump
HP650 @ 17PSI (maybe going to do a tune with a few PSI less).
First trackday with bigger additional oil cooler, the CSF and the water wetter/only dist. water- im excited to see what my temps will say.
Will keep you informed.
SRF is castrol's brake fluid. This was the end of a 20 minute session at NCM in the advanced run group.
Pulling the A/C condenser from in front of the radiator and blocking the air flow around the radiator helps a lot. Plus a vent in hood helps pull the air out. This was the last hot lap of a 20 minute session in the advanced group at NCM. I will say, I was 10 seconds off on Sunday from Saturday. My tires (r888r) were shot by the end of Saturday and had no grip at all. I really should have changed them before, but I'm moving up a wheel size and didn't want to buy another set just for two days. I'll upload a lap video to YT in a minute. Was doing NCM at 2:29/2:30. Not the fastest ever, but not a Sunday drive.
SRF... omg, so the product I myself mentioned the m4 gt4 uses a few posts ago earlier today... Im getting old it seems
Anyhow I watched the video. This explains alot. This track seens to have very low % of wot per lap. Ie is easy on the engine in terms of cooling. You are like constantly turning in 3rd at low-mid rpm right? Probably easy on brakes as well?
BTW I would probably select tires that are great in corners for this track next time. From what Ive heard the r888r are better in braking and acceleration than handling, but Im no expert...
Are you using harrys laptimer with obd connection? If so please export the csv file from the hottest lap and upload to datazap for reference if possible? I find it very interesting that you actually removed the AC. Initially I thought you just turned it off. On my car I just placed an aux rad in front if the AC...
My car is now getting some further cooling upgrades. We're replacing the stock auxilliary radiator with a properly ducted 34-row Setrab heat exchanger (the same Setrab I'm using as an oil cooler on the the passenger side).
In addition, I'm installing a Wagner Evo3 intercooler.
Finally, we're going to consider moving the air filter -- currently on the passenger side -- to the drivers side to get it away from the turbo.
We may also replace the crash beam behind the bumper cover with tubing, so I can vent the bumper cover if more airflow is needed.
Neil
In addition, I'm installing a Wagner Evo3 intercooler.
Finally, we're going to consider moving the air filter -- currently on the passenger side -- to the drivers side to get it away from the turbo.
We may also replace the crash beam behind the bumper cover with tubing, so I can vent the bumper cover if more airflow is needed.
Neil
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I attached a csv lap extract. I couldn't get it to load properly in datazap. I'd say the exact opposite for NCM, there is a lot of full throttle and is hard on brakes. 3.15 miles/lap with 23 turns. I am moving to a 18x9.5 wheel to run 275/35/18s all around.SRF... omg, so the product I myself mentioned the m4 gt4 uses a few posts ago earlier today... Im getting old it seems
Anyhow I watched the video. This explains alot. This track seens to have very low % of wot per lap. Ie is easy on the engine in terms of cooling. You are like constantly turning in 3rd at low-mid rpm right? Probably easy on brakes as well?
BTW I would probably select tires that are great in corners for this track next time. From what Ive heard the r888r are better in braking and acceleration than handling, but Im no expert...
Are you using harrys laptimer with obd connection? If so please export the csv file from the hottest lap and upload to datazap for reference if possible? I find it very interesting that you actually removed the AC. Initially I thought you just turned it off. On my car I just placed an aux rad in front if the AC...
View attachment 28474
Here's your lap in datazap
I manually deleted the first row to get it to load properly.
What turbos and fmic are you running? There's only 8C difference between your min and max iat over the entire lap.
Pure stage 2 and ADE650 ICHere's your lap in datazap
I manually deleted the first row to get it to load properly.
What turbos and fmic are you running? There's only 8C difference between your min and max iat over the entire lap.
One big easy improvement is to make sure you block off the stock air inlet holes in the front brace in front of the radiator. That keeps a lot of air from avoiding the radiator. I made a template with cardboard and cut it out of some sheet stock and epoxied to the plastic.
I saw that a few pages back, looks like a good idea if not running the standard airbox.
Will the second Setrab be for coolant or oil?
I too use SRF. It was actually hard to get the PFC08s up and working. Left OEM pads in the rear. The circuit and the type has an influence on overall temps which I've alluded to several posts back. There are guys on the 'ring that get away with relatively stock cooling systems and ducting because the track is high speed and high airflow. NCM looks med-high speed to me.
Here's my video, low-med speed. I don't get into 4th (about 6000rpm before T1/T2) anywhere except the main straight. Maybe with more grip, suspension (car is stock apart from camber plates, 18x9.5/18x10.5 wheels) I can get into 4th in some areas where I'm already pushing way too high RPM for the N54 with standard turbos; 6500rpm~
Second video so you can see that pushing 100% on these tyres is pointless, they get twitchy and fall off:
Only 14 rows of my Setrabs get air from the OEM 1M ducts. I am using untouched (just EPDM rubber shrouding) on the 1M standard wheel arch liners.
Been there, done that. Everyone I have talked to says the devil is in the details when it comes to air ducting, so I believe this is great advice. It just doesn't solve the cooling problem our cars have.
Here's the reason why the track, and how much you push, is important:
I have compared two laps at guangdong international circuit. The track is basically two long straights connected with some tight turns. Excellent for finding the limits of cooling systems.
The green lap below is where I am driving the car during an 1h endurance race. The purple line is where my friend is driving during qualification. Same car, same weather, same track, same day. Now one lap is 5s faster than the other. And one lap cools down the car, the other heats it up - quickly.
Quali 1.39 lap - temp starts at 114C, ends at 119C, peaks at 119C, 41% avg pedal pos, 40% wot/lap
Race 1.44 lap - temp starts at 108C, ends at 107C, peaks at 109C, 22% avg pedal pos, 1% wot/lap
So if I wanted to, I could do 1.44 laps for an hour and never get into any cooling problems, which is in fact what we did that +100F day. On the other hand, if I do 1.39s laps, Im done after 5mins. And if I go even faster, I am done after one lap on such a hot day. Same goes for stock N55 M2.
So it really matters how much you push the car.
When I look at your youtube video, I count around 30% wot/lap. This just measured with a simple stop watch based on how the engine sounds in the video. If we look at the throttle position from your 2:40 lap datalog, which is of course different from acc pedal pos, it is fully open 33% of the time. When I checked throttle position in my data I saw it fully open 63%/lap for quali 1.39 lap, and 68%/lap for race 1.44 lap. So throttle was actually open more during the slower lap, even the average accelerator position was much lower. OK, not a good measure then, but still tells us alot about the track differences at play here.
At least to me, this concludes that doing 2:40 laps at NCM is not demanding in terms of cooling needed. The iats confirm this story.
