Technical MLS or Cutring Head Gasket?

[IQraceworks]

I'm in the process or ordering all the parts I need to put my motor back together. It should make 575-ish hp at 25psi on a good E40 tune. I've seen a lot of contradicting information on N54 head gaskets.

Maybe the reason I don't see much talk about N54 head gaskets it because it's pretty rare to have problems with them...even the OEM MLS type.

Any reason not to go back to the OEM MLS type head gasket? Or should I spend double the money and go with one of the Athens or SCE Vulcan cutring type head gaskets? Any downside to running the cutring type gasket?

Just trying to educate myself a little bit. Thanks

 

[IQraceworks]

Screw it...I just ordered an Elring MLS head gasket.

 

[JohnDaviz]

The trick is to torque down your head studs or oem screws. With the OEM Headbolts many ppl experience headlift around 600whp with a rebuild engine. I had it. The repair manual tells you how to do but it seems that it is not the exact same as it was done in the plant. So MLS will give you the challenge to do it right. Good Luck.

 

[IQraceworks]

The trick is to torque down your head studs or oem screws. With the OEM Headbolts many ppl experience headlift around 600whp with a rebuild engine. I had it. The repair manual tells you how to do but it seems that it is not the exact same as it was done in the plant. So MLS will give you the challenge to do it right. Good Luck.

Thanks for the feedback...but I'm a little confused. The BMW manual tells you the exact way to torque down the bolts. And original OEM gasket was an MLS gasket. If the head and block are clean and flat, you use new oem bolts, and a new MLS gasket.....why would it be a challange to torque them right and get the head to seal correctly? How do you know the way it was done at the plant does not match teh way they tell you to do it in the BMW tech manual?

Do you mean some people just get lazy and don't torque them correctly?

 

[carabuser]

I don't think they mess around with a torque sequence in the factory for the N54. Torquing bolts down individually will always be sub-optimal.

This is a video of the B57 assembly or at least one of the newer engines:

You can see that they just have a robot that perfectly torques them all down at exactly the same time.

Maybe if you were doing this yourself and had time to spare and wanted to improve on the repair manual method you could stagger the torque sequence, so follow the sequence from the manual working outwards but do multiple passes at increasing torque values (20nm, 40nm, 60nm etc). In my mind that would be better as you reduce the pinching effect of one bolt being fully torqued alone.

 

[IQraceworks]

Wow....that's pretty cool how they do that. If I had to bet, I'd say that most of the failures people have with using oem bolts is because they don't have the block and deck clean and flat, and they don't follow the BMW process for torquing. But who knows. I guess I will find out.

 

[CalvinNismo]

Elring head gaskets don’t sound like they have the best success rate on N54s. Check out the latest Zero to 60.

 

[JohnDaviz]

Cutring all day long

 

[Zalle]

Cutring all day long

Would you like to explain why you think that? MLS hold pretty well from what I've seen and also about to try I suppose

 

[IQraceworks]

Elring head gaskets don’t sound like they have the best success rate on N54s. Check out the latest Zero to 60.

Wish I would have listened to you. My new Elring head gasket, with only 1000 miles on the new engine, is starting to seep coolant out of it between the block and head. Everything was checked for flatness, surfaces were cleaned and has correct 20RA finish on them, new oem head bolts, torqued/angled to the BMW specs........and the stupid gasket is seeping fluid out of it. I'm about ready to just jerk this N54 out and drop an LS in the car.

Going to see if FCP will let me exchange the bad Elring gasket and give me credit for it on a new BMW brand head gasket.

 

[CalvinNismo]

Sorry to read this! With the coolant managing to be visible ‘uphill’ like that, yeah, it’s crap. I hope the genuine gasket solves things for you!

 

[Zero To 60]

Wish I would have listened to you. My new Elring head gasket, with only 1000 miles on the new engine, is starting to seep coolant out of it between the block and head. Everything was checked for flatness, surfaces were cleaned and has correct 20RA finish on them, new oem head bolts, torqued/angled to the BMW specs........and the stupid gasket is seeping fluid out of it. I'm about ready to just jerk this N54 out and drop an LS in the car.

Going to see if FCP will let me exchange the bad Elring gasket and give me credit for it on a new BMW brand head gasket.

View attachment 96927

I would pressure test your cooling system first. Definitely before pulling the head off. Just incase its something else and its just making its way there. It would be really nice if this is coolant from the OFHG, wishful thinking but worth investigating. On the same note i have had 2 elring gaskets let go around 650whp. 2 different engines. They dont seem to want to cop cylinder pressure as well as an oem. I am going to try a cut ring style on the next build.

 

[ShocknAwe]

I would pressure test your cooling system first. Definitely before pulling the head off. Just incase its something else and its just making its way there. It would be really nice if this is coolant from the OFHG, wishful thinking but worth investigating. On the same note i have had 2 elring gaskets let go around 650whp. 2 different engines. They dont seem to want to cop cylinder pressure as well as an oem. I am going to try a cut ring style on the next build.

Why would the OFHG oil coolant separation failure cause head gasket failure in the photo? Or do you think it could be tracking from the outside of the housing?

TBH I've stopped buying aftermarket gaskets of most kinds. They don't hold up as well as genuine BMW for some reason.

Don't remember what head gasket I have though, Hydra sent me the one he wanted me to use when I did my N53 head build. It's been fine now almost 4y should be ~600 knock wood.

 

[IQraceworks]

I did a test on the coolant system....it loses around 1psi every 2min. It's a slow leak, but it's a leak. Replaced the new OFHG with another new OFHG...no change, still leaks. Something is wrong with the gasket, and it's letting cooling seep through and into the oil system. I'm guessing probably around the timing chain galley area. It can squeeze past the gasket, and run right down into the oil pan. That's the only thing I can figure out. Compression is good on all of the cylinders, and the engine runs great....it's not burning coolant, so it's not getting into the cylinders. Around every 100 miles of driving, the coolant level in the tank drops around 1/8". No leaks anywhere on the car. I can't think of any other place the coolant could be getting into the oil besides the head gasket.

Read somewhere else that someone got an Elring head gasket recently that was missing one of the layers........so maybe I got one of those bad gaskets? Not sure...but I'm getting ready to pull the head off here in a couple of weeks.

FCP Euro was nice enough to credit me for the Elring gasket, and the headbolts. This time I'm ordering the OEM BWM head gaskets.....might go with a set of the ARP stock sized head studs too, just because I'm tired of messing with this thing. Might use some copper coat spray on the MLS gasket also, just to help with sealing.

I'll post up what I find after I get the head off.

 

[Hydra Performance]

Why would the OFHG oil coolant separation failure cause head gasket failure in the photo? Or do you think it could be tracking from the outside of the housing?

TBH I've stopped buying aftermarket gaskets of most kinds. They don't hold up as well as genuine BMW for some reason.

Don't remember what head gasket I have though, Hydra sent me the one he wanted me to use when I did my N53 head build. It's been fine now almost 4y should be ~600 knock wood.

Can't remember as it was so long ago, but I'm guessing it was either a Victor-Reinz or a fully coated (black in color) AJUSA gasket.

Also, just to be extra safe, we apply a liberal coat of copper spray, even between the layers, on brand new gaskets before installing, just in case...

 

[IQraceworks]

Can't remember as it was so long ago, but I'm guessing it was either a Victor-Reinz or a fully coated (black in color) AJUSA gasket.

Also, just to be extra safe, we apply a liberal coat of copper spray, even between the layers, on brand new gaskets before installing, just in case...

So you drill out the rivets, and coat each sheet of steel, and then put them all back together? Sounds like you must have had issues similar to what I'm having if you go through all of that trouble. I guess if it adds one extra layer of insurance to keep them from leaking....it's worth the trouble.

What brand of copper spray are you using?

 

[Hydra Performance]

No, we do it with the HG as-is, and we use Permatex Copper Spray

Just don't be alarmed when you find bronze flakes in your oil the first oil change after the build

 

[IQraceworks]

No, we do it with the HG as-is, and we use Permatex Copper Spray

Just don't be alarmed when you find bronze flakes in your oil the first oil change after the build

OK, thanks...

I was just wondering because above you said "Also, just to be extra safe, we apply a liberal coat of copper spray, even between the layers"

 

[rev210]

I would pressure test your cooling system first. Definitely before pulling the head off. Just incase its something else and its just making its way there. It would be really nice if this is coolant from the OFHG, wishful thinking but worth investigating. On the same note i have had 2 elring gaskets let go around 650whp. 2 different engines. They dont seem to want to cop cylinder pressure as well as an oem. I am going to try a cut ring style on the next build.

It's a nasty lesson to have to learn about head gasket quality. You find just about every platform of engine has the same learnings. Fire ring/cut ring always seal better as a general rule but, there are some situations where you would rather let go at the head gasket then the alternative carnage of an extreme cylinder pressure event.
MLS work well in huge power when the surfaces are prepped well and the gasket is actually designed to put up with abuse(performance). Stock copy cheapo gaskets (insert elring etc) is almost a warning in itself if you think about it regardless of engine platform.

 

[IQraceworks]

From what I read, I thought the Cutring type gaskets sealed the cylinders better, but has more issues with sealing around the coolant ports? Is that not the case? Any special type of machine work needed to the block or head to run the gasket? What brand would you suggest? Thanks!