5mpg better E85 mileage by using DIESEL!!
- Thread starter dyezak
- Start date
I have a guy that makes a 6MT swap for the M57 now. Located in MI and can also makes the LSD with higher gear ratio to mate with the MT.
He has the electronics all figured out? SES works properly and everything?
Mechanically the swap won't be very difficult, and that's the stuff I'm good at too. The electronics have me scared for now.
Electronics should be reasonably simple as you're essentislle doing an oem configuration. Jim at Kassell Performance is doing a m57 into an e92 coupe as we speak. He'll be the one to ask.
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Its nothing an ecu tune, some chassis coding, and a touch of wiring can't fix. I've done quite a few manual diesel swaps in audis/vws that weren't diesel or manual here, but were offered in Europe.
I think I averaged right at 20 towing 6klbs in my 2013 x5d.. thing is a beast! Need to delete the ABC's now.
Filippo if money wasn't object would you get a m57 or n57 and how bad do you feel the weight difference is if you do suspension like does car still feel balanced. And props to you every time is a car or mod you have it always awesome and tasteful.
@Rob09msport, thanks for the kind words. So on your question of M57 or N57. There are a bunch of factors, which I'll type up. When you are done running through it, I suspect you will arrive to a pretty clear answer which is best for you.
N57 535d / X5:
The N57 is a tour de force motor. In stock form pulls like a mofo, smooth, fires up in 5 degree whether with maybe a 200 millisecond glow plug wait (like you almost wouldn't know). The 535d is a tank, yet it gets 36mpg mixed. The N57 is available only in the 535d and X5. I am not an auto trans guy, but this motor in the USA is mated to the glorious ZF 8HP - a transmission so sweet (I can't imagine if it was further tuned), I could almost forego ever having a manual.
Wipe away any idea you have of what a diesel is. I have a powerstroke here, my wife had a TDi before and now a Mercedes Bluetec ... N57 is light years ahead.
The 535d drives horribly - you'd think it was a Cadillac, even with m-sport, so if you buy plan on doing H&R swaybars and AC Schnitzer springs (magic combo fixes the car, with no ride degradation, courtesy of feedback from Will Turner's shop). The X5 is much better, but some people feel they are kind of stiff. I had a '18 X5 35d for about six weeks last year when my fuel system blew up. That X5 was fantastic but with an $80k price tag new.
Tuning is limited on these cars in the USA - they are not common. I run an outboard Racechip which works well. I know some guys tuning the cars that seem to be good (they drag, have a dyno, so steeped in reality).
The emission system on the N57 is said to be improved, remains to be seen if CBU cleaning (Carbon Buildup - think like N54) is necessary. My tuner buddy seems to say that dyno results show little improvement by deleting emissions parts. (see more on this below with the M57).
If you go buy an N57 535d you DO NOT BUY IT WITHOUT THE MULTI-CONTOUR SEATS. Period. Laugh all you want, everyone I know that has followed the advice laughs and says it is true. The 535d is a high-class ride. If you are looking for a more opulent car for daily driving (you live in it), this will be evident immediately when you get in. Prices are dropping like a stone from the $65-80k starting point of 535d and X5 35d. X5 diesels going for a bit more than the 535d, and likely holding value a bit more.
Compared to the M57 older gen cars (below), you can get lots of nice stuff in the newer cars - Xdrive (535d), HUD (it's fantastic), an improving iDrive (2017 or so onward actually is super, 2014-ish is good but not super), and other stuff like PDC, and all the lane avoidance crap which you might think is fairy but driving with the safety stuff, honestly, it should be in all cars (I digress).
M57 335d / X5d:
Diesel hotrodder's dream. It's a small community (compared to say, N54-wise) but a strong one. Aftermarket parts, tuners, et cetera. People squeeze stupid power out of these, with stock turbos. There are folks doing turbo changes, too but not too necessary in daily driver form as one can get a lot out of the stock setup (kind of like N54). These are relatively inexpensive vehicles - mint with 50k miles are around $18-20k (a bit more for X5) but less for higher mileage examples. IMHO weak link on the 3er is auto slushbox only ... it's not a ZF 8HP. People tune them ... I'm not an auto guy so maybe there is a comparison to the mainline N54 cars. 2011 was a one-year "m-sport" 335 with sport seats, etc. They can be found but are getting snatched up by the community.
Lots of folks do what they call an "ABC delete" - removing the emissions parts Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF ... think catalyst on gas engine), EGR, and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR - that's the DEF fluid thingie). Gas mileage goes up, power goes up, and so does reliability. EGR is a contributing culprit to fouling up the intake runners/valves (think N54), so CBU cleaning comes with these cars.
The Facebook north american diesel group is full of M57 guys. Just a few of us N57 guys are there. It's an odd bunch - I'd say a cross between BMW airhead guys and ... well ... I dunno. Lots of young guys playing with these cars, though. They are scary fast and torque is a plenty. If you like the E90 platform and are willing to run its automatic, the 335 is a cool ride - buy a stock one and blow people off the road with a handful of drivetrain mods.
X5 diesels in general:
People tow with these. Want to drag your N54 to the track with an aluminum open trailer? No problem. Given short wheelbase people report these to nonetheless be pretty stable in transit.
Issues and other things of note:
We only run tier one fuels (like we would on modified N54s) since diesel in the USA has questionable rep. I gas at Shell and Exxon pretty much. Also it is said to gas where diesel is frequently consumed so it doesn't sit in the tanks long and collect water. Water is the diesel devil.
Both motors are built like King Kong. The emissions parts ... those are the problem, mostly. The N57 is supposedly a better design. My N57 had a catastrophic HPFP failure. Supposedly not common, but known to happen - $14k complete fuel system replacement by BMW under warranty. I don't expect this to happen twice ... who knows what happened ... like someone pumped a few gallons of gas in the tank before I took ownership of the car.
The cars are not common so being a sharp BMW guy helps as you won't find lots of places that have a clue. Good news is there is not a lot you need specialized knowledge for, in the sense that the motors are pretty reliable and a lot of information crosses over diesel-wise. But you are in a small club - N57 has yet to see the kind of support the M57 does and I sadly suspect it never will mostly because the 3 series (the platform of modding choice) does not have it.
I bought the 535d because I've always been a 5er guy - E28 M5, E34, E39, (hated E60, skipped), and now F10. All were modded to my driving taste. I want something comfortable, that I can pull a long commute if needed, etc. I've owned several 3 series and that's not been the thing for me, though the cars get bigger and bigger so an E90 could be just fine maybe.
Hope this helps - lots of info, not exhaustive though. I've attached a few photos of my rig, which is obviously not stock.
Filippo
N57 535d / X5:
The N57 is a tour de force motor. In stock form pulls like a mofo, smooth, fires up in 5 degree whether with maybe a 200 millisecond glow plug wait (like you almost wouldn't know). The 535d is a tank, yet it gets 36mpg mixed. The N57 is available only in the 535d and X5. I am not an auto trans guy, but this motor in the USA is mated to the glorious ZF 8HP - a transmission so sweet (I can't imagine if it was further tuned), I could almost forego ever having a manual.
Wipe away any idea you have of what a diesel is. I have a powerstroke here, my wife had a TDi before and now a Mercedes Bluetec ... N57 is light years ahead.
The 535d drives horribly - you'd think it was a Cadillac, even with m-sport, so if you buy plan on doing H&R swaybars and AC Schnitzer springs (magic combo fixes the car, with no ride degradation, courtesy of feedback from Will Turner's shop). The X5 is much better, but some people feel they are kind of stiff. I had a '18 X5 35d for about six weeks last year when my fuel system blew up. That X5 was fantastic but with an $80k price tag new.
Tuning is limited on these cars in the USA - they are not common. I run an outboard Racechip which works well. I know some guys tuning the cars that seem to be good (they drag, have a dyno, so steeped in reality).
The emission system on the N57 is said to be improved, remains to be seen if CBU cleaning (Carbon Buildup - think like N54) is necessary. My tuner buddy seems to say that dyno results show little improvement by deleting emissions parts. (see more on this below with the M57).
If you go buy an N57 535d you DO NOT BUY IT WITHOUT THE MULTI-CONTOUR SEATS. Period. Laugh all you want, everyone I know that has followed the advice laughs and says it is true. The 535d is a high-class ride. If you are looking for a more opulent car for daily driving (you live in it), this will be evident immediately when you get in. Prices are dropping like a stone from the $65-80k starting point of 535d and X5 35d. X5 diesels going for a bit more than the 535d, and likely holding value a bit more.
Compared to the M57 older gen cars (below), you can get lots of nice stuff in the newer cars - Xdrive (535d), HUD (it's fantastic), an improving iDrive (2017 or so onward actually is super, 2014-ish is good but not super), and other stuff like PDC, and all the lane avoidance crap which you might think is fairy but driving with the safety stuff, honestly, it should be in all cars (I digress).
M57 335d / X5d:
Diesel hotrodder's dream. It's a small community (compared to say, N54-wise) but a strong one. Aftermarket parts, tuners, et cetera. People squeeze stupid power out of these, with stock turbos. There are folks doing turbo changes, too but not too necessary in daily driver form as one can get a lot out of the stock setup (kind of like N54). These are relatively inexpensive vehicles - mint with 50k miles are around $18-20k (a bit more for X5) but less for higher mileage examples. IMHO weak link on the 3er is auto slushbox only ... it's not a ZF 8HP. People tune them ... I'm not an auto guy so maybe there is a comparison to the mainline N54 cars. 2011 was a one-year "m-sport" 335 with sport seats, etc. They can be found but are getting snatched up by the community.
Lots of folks do what they call an "ABC delete" - removing the emissions parts Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF ... think catalyst on gas engine), EGR, and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR - that's the DEF fluid thingie). Gas mileage goes up, power goes up, and so does reliability. EGR is a contributing culprit to fouling up the intake runners/valves (think N54), so CBU cleaning comes with these cars.
The Facebook north american diesel group is full of M57 guys. Just a few of us N57 guys are there. It's an odd bunch - I'd say a cross between BMW airhead guys and ... well ... I dunno. Lots of young guys playing with these cars, though. They are scary fast and torque is a plenty. If you like the E90 platform and are willing to run its automatic, the 335 is a cool ride - buy a stock one and blow people off the road with a handful of drivetrain mods.
X5 diesels in general:
People tow with these. Want to drag your N54 to the track with an aluminum open trailer? No problem. Given short wheelbase people report these to nonetheless be pretty stable in transit.
Issues and other things of note:
We only run tier one fuels (like we would on modified N54s) since diesel in the USA has questionable rep. I gas at Shell and Exxon pretty much. Also it is said to gas where diesel is frequently consumed so it doesn't sit in the tanks long and collect water. Water is the diesel devil.
Both motors are built like King Kong. The emissions parts ... those are the problem, mostly. The N57 is supposedly a better design. My N57 had a catastrophic HPFP failure. Supposedly not common, but known to happen - $14k complete fuel system replacement by BMW under warranty. I don't expect this to happen twice ... who knows what happened ... like someone pumped a few gallons of gas in the tank before I took ownership of the car.
The cars are not common so being a sharp BMW guy helps as you won't find lots of places that have a clue. Good news is there is not a lot you need specialized knowledge for, in the sense that the motors are pretty reliable and a lot of information crosses over diesel-wise. But you are in a small club - N57 has yet to see the kind of support the M57 does and I sadly suspect it never will mostly because the 3 series (the platform of modding choice) does not have it.
I bought the 535d because I've always been a 5er guy - E28 M5, E34, E39, (hated E60, skipped), and now F10. All were modded to my driving taste. I want something comfortable, that I can pull a long commute if needed, etc. I've owned several 3 series and that's not been the thing for me, though the cars get bigger and bigger so an E90 could be just fine maybe.
Hope this helps - lots of info, not exhaustive though. I've attached a few photos of my rig, which is obviously not stock.
Filippo
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This is an interesting thread. I DD a cummins but have never really paid attention to European diesels. What are the tuning options on these BMWs? Do they have full control of the ECU or are they doing ghetto shit like increasing pressure?
Full tuning is going on. N57 just got OBD-II upload beginning of the year. Used to be send in the DDE kinda thing (BMW calls the diesel DME a DDE - Digital Diesel Electronics ... go figure). Now tuners can send you the upload tool (insurance money down), and you upload tune then ship it back tool - better but not ideal. I understand personal upload is coming. N57 is '14 forward 3 liter single turbo on 535d and X5 35d. M57 is 3 liter twin turbo 335d and X5 prior gen. Lots more tuning solutions there - lots more modding support if that's what you are after. I'm the wrong guy to get in the details on the M57 (don't own one, just hang out with people that do). While @ccbsecu is doing heavy mods on M57, I'm sure he can speak far better on what's available mainstream 335d.
On my N57 I have the ghetto outboard setup (like you call it) playing with the fuel rail. Mine is a DD and I didn't want to dick with the tuning overheard (at the time) for a car I am supposed to be leaving alone ... dammit ... if ... only ... . I'm also CPO and just want to treat it like a toaster. When I'm out of that I expect options to have matured for the N57 and evident decision making around tune, deletes, et cetera.
If you know about Cummins mods it puts you one step ahead, as in some ways diesel is diesel ...
Filippo
On my N57 I have the ghetto outboard setup (like you call it) playing with the fuel rail. Mine is a DD and I didn't want to dick with the tuning overheard (at the time) for a car I am supposed to be leaving alone ... dammit ... if ... only ... . I'm also CPO and just want to treat it like a toaster. When I'm out of that I expect options to have matured for the N57 and evident decision making around tune, deletes, et cetera.
If you know about Cummins mods it puts you one step ahead, as in some ways diesel is diesel ...
Filippo
I wanted to DD an newer F250/350 powerstroke crew cab king ranch ... but a buddy of mine that has owned several such trucks told me I'd love it but really tire of the size in practical daily driving/parking/... . So I balked. I also live in a metropolitan area on the east coast, which probably contributes the commentary. Guess I need to move to make that purchase :-D
Filippo
The truck is great for towing (and MPG while towing) but they really don't get great fuel economy. If the 335d had the nice transmission I would take a hard look at that.
My EcoDiesel gets 22mpg around town, and 25mpg on the highway. 9,000lbs towing capability. 4x4, 3.92 gears. And 18mpg while towing. My old Grand Cherokee (new model) with the Hemi only got 16mpg around town. And 9mpg towing.
With a mild tailwind on the highway I get insane gas milelage. I actually averaged 30mpg from Dallas to Waco TX one day due to a tailwind.
This new generation of light duty diesel is phenomenal.
The M57 is very mod friendly and tuning options today are not the old spider boot type stuff you’re thinking of. The X70 35d is a beast SUV once it’s deleted. Great towing capacity for what work needs while retaining the luxury feel for daily driving.
It’s truly remarkable a SUV can make 400/600 and still get 30+ mpg on highway trips.
XHP makes the ZF seem like a bastard brother to DCT. Plus - I’ve pushed 700 wtq to my trans and it never flinched.
Just got my wife a 38k mile 2013 GLK250 bluetec in the fall. She loves it. It was a rare color, Mars Red. Had clearcoat failure and Benz just completed repainted the thing, no questions asked.
That said, the bluetec motor in her GLK is nothing like the N57. The Bluetec reminds me of TDi, et cetera ... nice but not ... "... what ... this is diesel?!"
Filippo
Agreed. My big ass pickup is smoother than my wife’s blutec. But the blutec drives better than any other diesel I have ever driven. For a commuter car it drives better than any gas engine...kind of rivals the instant torque and smoothness of an electric motor. But that clatter is something that I notice and disappoints me...wife has no clue what I’m talking about, she doesn’t notice the clatter.
