N20 PWG negative pressure changed to positive pressure solenoid valve control

Tony

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Hi all, I replaced the original vacuum actuator with a positive pressure conventional actuator and a turbine adapter for the boost side and eliminated the line from the vacuum pump to the solenoid valve.
The solenoid valve is changed to 3 ports, one for the booster end and one for the exhaust actuator. One port is open to the atmosphere. The frequency of the original solenoid valve is about 250Hz-300Hz. I'm not sure what the frequency of n20 DME is. Target continuous pressure is 22psi. Three solenoid valves Pierburg 7.01024.02.0 or Pierburg 7.21903.70.0 or Pierburg 7.21903.75 How to choose?
97ba5249-fa23-4833-bf82-1d158d7d2b2a.jpg
 
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JPuehl

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Hi Tony,

I went thru the exercise of trying to use the vacuum based boost solenoid as pressure based and had limited success. If you have an N20 and the N20 boost solenoid, you should be able to use that. Using the vacuum base solenoid will be limited by how much pressure it can hold. I was not able to see it hold pressure so my boost would drop. I ended up giving up on the idea since I wanted to have 28-29# boost at redline and the vacuum boost solenoid wouldn't hold it. I'll look thru my logs and post what I felt was the best results I had. Feel free to ask any questions to help speed up your progress.
 
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Tony

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Hi Tony,

I went thru the exercise of trying to use the vacuum based boost solenoid as pressure based and had limited success. If you have an N20 and the N20 boost solenoid, you should be able to use that. Using the vacuum base solenoid will be limited by how much pressure it can hold. I was not able to see it hold pressure so my boost would drop. I ended up giving up on the idea since I wanted to have 28-29# boost at redline and the vacuum boost solenoid wouldn't hold it. I'll look thru my logs and post what I felt was the best results I had. Feel free to ask any questions to help speed up your progress.
97ba5249-fa23-4833-bf82-1d158d7d2b2a.jpg


1e362ba9-7ce2-4d60-8065-2cab5ad355e6.jpg


The N20 solenoid valve has 2 holes. I plan to change it to a positive pressure three-hole solenoid valve. I would like a 250-300hz solenoid controlled by the original ECU. Which of the three solenoid valves do you recommend?
I installed the turbo adapter on the turbo tube as the boost end. The exhaust gas actuator is replaced with a reinforced type with a spring inside.
 

JPuehl

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Jul 24, 2019
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I was testing the 7.21903.70. I believe the only way I had it working was with boost to the ATM port, the OUT port went to the WGA and the VAC port vented to ATM. You should be able to use that to get 22# boost. Keep in mind you need a pressure based WGA, like the TurboSmart IWG-75
 
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Tony

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I was testing the 7.21903.70. I believe the only way I had it working was with boost to the ATM port, the OUT port went to the WGA and the VAC port vented to ATM. You should be able to use that to get 22# boost. Keep in mind you need a pressure based WGA, like the TurboSmart IWG-75
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Are there any pictures for reference? How do you connect it? Or how do I connect my N20?
 

Tony

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我正在測試 7.21903.70。我相信我讓它工作的唯一方法是對 ATM 連接埠進行升壓,OUT 連接埠連接到 WGA,VAC 連接埠通往 ATM。你應該能夠使用它來獲得 22# 提升。請記住,您需要基於壓力的 WGA,例如 TurboSmart IWG-75
I found a factory that would help me build a conventional boost exhaust actuator. There are a variety of PSI springs for me to choose from.
I don't know if the photo I took is correct.
 

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JPuehl

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Jul 24, 2019
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2011 135i 1M clone N55e DCT
Hi Tony,

Your pic of the boost solenoid is correct, as far as the labeled ports. Also, the boost solenoid would work on the WGA (wastegate actuator). so if you... oh wait, don't you have an EWG? If so, what are you trying to do switching from a vacuum to pressure based something?
 
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Tony

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Dec 2, 2024
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Hi Tony,

Your pic of the boost solenoid is correct, as far as the labeled ports. Also, the boost solenoid would work on the WGA (wastegate actuator). so if you... oh wait, don't you have an EWG? If so, what are you trying to do switching from a vacuum to pressure based something?
Yes, the original factory uses PWG vacuum and negative pressure. I need to switch to positive pressure and eliminate the vacuum line like the VW model, is this okay?
 
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Tony

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Dec 2, 2024
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Hi Tony,

Your pic of the boost solenoid is correct, as far as the labeled ports. Also, the boost solenoid would work on the WGA (wastegate actuator). so if you... oh wait, don't you have an EWG? If so, what are you trying to do switching from a vacuum to pressure based something?
Is the boost side of the solenoid valve 7.21903.70 you are using connected to vacuum or boost? Can I connect the turbine line pressure to the boost side of the solenoid?
 

wheela

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If you're going to do this, you can scratch off 7.01024.02.0, as I've tested all 3 and that one doesn't work properly in the 250-300Hz duty cycle range.

To use the vacuum solenoids with pressure (instead of vacuum), you'd need to keep the pressure differential across the diaphragm pushing in the same direction. So you'll plumb it to your boost signal like the attached drawing.

1000013345.jpg


If you plumb either of the other two valves like this drawing, they'll work with boost pressure up to a point. Like @JPuehl said, it doesn't work well for really high boost, but it may work for your goal of 22psi. Maybe use a 12 psi spring?

The reason it doesn't work well for high boost, is since it's designed for vacuum, 100% duty cycle only pulls on the diaphragm hard enough to balance out against full vacuum, which is around negative 14psi. So if you replumb it for boost, at 100% duty cycle you can vent 100% of the boost signal away from the wastegate up to around 14psi. But for every pound of boost over 14psi, you'll bleed 1 pound boost signal to the wastegate. So for example, if you run a 12psi spring, if you have 100% duty cycle and 22psi of boost, there would still be about 8-9 psi going through the valve to the wastegate (22psi boost - 13 to 14psi @ 100%DC = 8 to 9 psi going through the valve e). 8-9 psi is below the cracking point for a 12psi spring, but you still have a lot of exhaust back pressure trying to push open the wastegate flap at 22psi boost, so it's hard to predict how much boost you'll be able to hit for a given spring with this method.

How I'll be getting around this limitation for my build, is I'll install a regulator set to around 14psi right before the boost solenoid. That way, regardless of how much boost I run, the valve will always be capable of venting 100% of the boost signal away from the wastegate, allowing me to max out the spring. The next limitation this causes, is it limits how high of a spring value you can run, as you only have a max boost signal of around 14psi to open the wastegate.

If you do this, please know you're treading new ground, so no garantees it will work 100% as planned. I'm planning on controlling my boost this way, but haven't actually done it yet. To my knowledge, JPheul is the only one whose actually tried this out so far.

A other thing I've noticed in my testing using these vac solenoids with boost pressure, is with big changes in duty cycle, a resonance can set up inside the valve. Not sure if it would limit the life of the valve or not, but I don't like it. I've got some experiments planned to see if I can damp it out and eliminate the resonance, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!
 
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wheela

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When JPheul said you could use your 2-port n20 boost solenoid, I believe he meant you could if you remove the vent filter. @cstokes discovered on his stock boost solenoid that you can pull the vent filter off, and expose the 3rd port. Not sure if you can on the n20 boost solenoid, but may be worth a shot. Here's a screenshot of an n20 i took from a different forum showing what I believe is the boost solenoid. Try pulling this filter off and seeing if there is a 3rd port underneath. If there is, you can plumb it to boost like my picture above, and then not have to buy another boost solenoid.
 

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wheela

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Also, you probably already know this, but you'll absolutely need to returne if you do this, as it will greatly change the wastegate characteristics so the wastegate models in the tune will need to change.
 
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Tony

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If you're going to do this, you can scratch off 7.01024.02.0, as I've tested all 3 and that one doesn't work properly in the 250-300Hz duty cycle range.

To use the vacuum solenoids with pressure (instead of vacuum), you'd need to keep the pressure differential across the diaphragm pushing in the same direction. So you'll plumb it to your boost signal like the attached drawing.

View attachment 103104

If you plumb either of the other two valves like this drawing, they'll work with boost pressure up to a point. Like @JPuehl said, it doesn't work well for really high boost, but it may work for your goal of 22psi. Maybe use a 12 psi spring?

The reason it doesn't work well for high boost, is since it's designed for vacuum, 100% duty cycle only pulls on the diaphragm hard enough to balance out against full vacuum, which is around negative 14psi. So if you replumb it for boost, at 100% duty cycle you can vent 100% of the boost signal away from the wastegate up to around 14psi. But for every pound of boost over 14psi, you'll bleed 1 pound boost signal to the wastegate. So for example, if you run a 12psi spring, if you have 100% duty cycle and 22psi of boost, there would still be about 8-9 psi going through the valve to the wastegate (22psi boost - 13 to 14psi @ 100%DC = 8 to 9 psi going through the valve e). 8-9 psi is below the cracking point for a 12psi spring, but you still have a lot of exhaust back pressure trying to push open the wastegate flap at 22psi boost, so it's hard to predict how much boost you'll be able to hit for a given spring with this method.

How I'll be getting around this limitation for my build, is I'll install a regulator set to around 14psi right before the boost solenoid. That way, regardless of how much boost I run, the valve will always be capable of venting 100% of the boost signal away from the wastegate, allowing me to max out the spring. The next limitation this causes, is it limits how high of a spring value you can run, as you only have a max boost signal of around 14psi to open the wastegate.

If you do this, please know you're treading new ground, so no garantees it will work 100% as planned. I'm planning on controlling my boost this way, but haven't actually done it yet. To my knowledge, JPheul is the only one whose actually tried this out so far.

A other thing I've noticed in my testing using these vac solenoids with boost pressure, is with big changes in duty cycle, a resonance can set up inside the valve. Not sure if it would limit the life of the valve or not, but I don't like it. I've got some experiments planned to see if I can damp it out and eliminate the resonance, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!
I kinda see what you mean my current WGDC is 60-70 I have attached the 4 gear LOG files
 

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Tony

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When JPheul said you could use your 2-port n20 boost solenoid, I believe he meant you could if you remove the vent filter. @cstokes discovered on his stock boost solenoid that you can pull the vent filter off, and expose the 3rd port. Not sure if you can on the n20 boost solenoid, but may be worth a shot. Here's a screenshot of an n20 i took from a different forum showing what I believe is the boost solenoid. Try pulling this filter off and seeing if there is a 3rd port underneath. If there is, you can plumb it to boost like my picture above, and then not have to buy another boost solenoid.
I have replaced the original solenoid valve model 7.00887.21.0
Which one is more suitable, 7.00887.21.0 or 7.21903.70?
Have you tested the N55 solenoid valve?
 
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Tony

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Also, you probably already know this, but you'll absolutely need to returne if you do this, as it will greatly change the wastegate characteristics so the wastegate models in the tune will need to change.
Should the negative pressure vacuum exhaust actuator be changed to a positive pressure traditional exhaust actuator?
 

wheela

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I have replaced the original solenoid valve model 7.00887.21.0
Which one is more suitable, 7.00887.21.0 or 7.21903.70?
Hard to say. Most likely, this style of valve is the same, but there are different p/n's for different connections, port configurations, etc. The other differences could be in the sizes of the orifices inside the valve optimized for different flow rates, and solenoid strength, but I think that last one is unlikely. Since both valves are intended to operate vacuum wastegates, I suspect the innards may be identical. So as long as you can plumb it per the drawing, either would likely work.
 

wheela

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Should the negative pressure vacuum exhaust actuator be changed to a positive pressure traditional exhaust actuator?
Yes, this is what you did, right? What actuator did you go with, and what spring are you using?
 

Tony

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Dec 2, 2024
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Hard to say. Most likely, this style of valve is the same, but there are different p/n's for different connections, port configurations, etc. The other differences could be in the sizes of the orifices inside the valve optimized for different flow rates, and solenoid strength, but I think that last one is unlikely. Since both valves are intended to operate vacuum wastegates, I suspect the innards may be identical. So as long as you can plumb it per the drawing, either would likely work.
I went to remove the solenoid valve, but the casing could not be removed.
I had to remove the top round cover, which has the third connection hole.
 

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Tony

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Yes, this is what you did, right? What actuator did you go with, and what spring are you using?
I am in Taiwan and looking for the Taiwanese manufacturer brand MAMBA
n20 is a negative pressure exhaust gas actuator. I asked the manufacturer to order a positive pressure exhaust actuator
 
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wheela

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You can check out Turbosmart as well, they sell good pressure-based traditional actuators you could use as well👍
 
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