BimmerFab VS Jack Fabrication N54 Single Turbo Kit Questions

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
Hey Spoolstreet I am looking at the BimmerFab Single Turbo Kit, I haven't been able to find any E60 Chassis reviews, I was really hoping somebody on this forum has had experience with this kit on the E60 Chassis. I'm fine with the coolant relocation kit, obviously the MAC Solenoid for the single turbo, but I want to make sure I don't have to modify the entire kit to work on the E60 (RWD). I am between the BimmerFab and the Jack Fabrication kit, obviously the price on the BimmerFab kit is a bit more palatable at 3200 vs the Jack Fab 4K, both use Pulsar Turbo (BimmerFab is the Gen 3 3584 vs JackFab Gen 2 3582) and WG, both are top mount. Both have roughly a 4-6 week lead time, but I want to end up with a kit that will actually fit and be as bolt-on as possible. Any input is greatly appreciated and welcomed. Links to both kits will be posted below:

BimmerFab:

Jack Fabrication:
 

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
I’m on 19T’s and flex, but I’d like some more power. I haven’t found any bottom mount kits that are supposed to work (I’ve heard the doc and VS kits have to be modified a fair bit to work, to be honest, but I’m not at all opposed to bottom mount, considering I don’t have to have the kit fabbed to function on the E60 chassis.

Wheela-why don’t they seem appealing to you?
 
Last edited:

wheela

Captain
Jun 4, 2021
1,459
846
0
Twin Cities, MN
Ride
2015 e84 X1 35i Msport
I’m on 19T’s and flex, but I’d like some more power. I haven’t found any bottom mount kits that are supposed to work (I’ve heard the doc and VS kits have to be modified a fair bit to work, to be honest, but I’m not at all opposed to bottom mount, considering I don’t have to have the kit fabbed to function on the E60 chassis.

Wheela-why don’t they seem appealing to you?
Well, it may be splitting hairs of how big a deal these things are, but:

1.) Both kits-
On both kits the oem boyson cylinder bank manifolds dump into pretty large diameter pipes. Those pipes only carry exhaust from 1 cylinder at a time so there's no need from a flow perspective for them to be that big, and the large diameter will un-necessarily slow down exhaust velocity in the pipe, not optimal for good spool and response. Also, both are obviously single scroll, not ideal for spool.

2.) BimmerFab-
There's a T connecting the two banks, and each bank directly faces the other. So instead of being directed towards the turbo inlet, each bank fires directly into the opposite bank. Not optimal for spool and backpressure at the exhaust valves.

3.) BimmerFab-
The wastegate isn't present on one view, and looks like an afterthought on another view. Doesn't seem like optimal wg positioning for avoiding boost creep?

4.) JackFab-
Both banks direct the exhaust towards the turbo, which is good. But it looks like there's is only a wastegate on one bank? The two banks merge in that area, so it should still work, but not ideal for boost control. Also, the wastegate actuator is practically touching the downpipe, probably not ideal for the life of the diaphragm inside.

Do the things above have a noticable impact performance? I don't know, but they don't seem ideal to me. Seems like they may be laggy, yet potentially susceptible to boost creep? That's why neither of these kits seem very appealing to me, personally.

I know Speedtech and 4n aren't made for 535, but if you look at those kits, their manifolds (both top and bottom mount in the case of speedtech) don't really have any of those non-ideal characteristics listed above - they're well-sorted manifolds in my opinion.

Have you looked into Hydra hp800's? I'm n55 so I'm not super familiar, but they seem like some pretty killer twins.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20250311_192115_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20250311_192115_Chrome.jpg
    194.6 KB · Views: 14
  • Screenshot_20250311_192423_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20250311_192423_Chrome.jpg
    152.3 KB · Views: 12
  • Screenshot_20250311_192242_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20250311_192242_Chrome.jpg
    242.9 KB · Views: 13
Last edited:

Tzaks

Specialist
May 30, 2019
54
20
0
Ride
35i e89
Have a look at jmc tuning kit from cyprus, it fits RHD cars so should fit an e60 lhd. Equal length, zirconia coated, it's a very well thought kit. I have it with a gtx3582r and it's pretty amazing.

Personally, I don't find either one of those kits appealing, I like the aliexpress offering more than those kits. I don't advocate for aliexpress kits but by comparison, this manifold seems superior for flow.
1741777967870.png
 

ShocknAwe

Captain
Jan 24, 2018
1,632
1
841
0
Charleston, SC
Ride
N54/3 1er ///Mutt
My biggest concern with AliExpress things is having it fit properly, but that really does look well constructed and designed even if it doesn't appear to have equal length runners, it looks close. 3:1 runners feeding to a T4 flange and wastegate dump to each limb though I would prefer a separate wastegate for each bank, and if open dump they MUST route under the car. A fabricator who emphasizes open dump and DP routing through the hood is a massive red flag to me. Consideration also important for O2 sensor placement pre or post turbo as they are service items on ST setups due to heat.

Bottom mount would be preferable for heat management and center of gravity purposes.

Really nice example of what the OP should be looking for as a baseline. Wonder what design they copied.

OP: Not all 19Ts are equal, not all twins in general are equal, and while the factory boysens are really quite amazing I'd want flow optimized turbo folds for large twins and a ST setup. I would never consider a build with the factory boysens cut in on anything other than something close to stock frame twins or maybe an incredibly small single (though what's the point of that?)

If you're open to more work, I'd really recommend considering head work, which is a massive restriction on the N54.

I'm quite biased though, I've voted with my wallet twice now with Hydra parts aimed at making the native TT architecture work as well as possible while retaining as many factory BMW parts internally as feasible.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: wheela

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
Well, it may be splitting hairs of how big a deal these things are, but:

1.) Both kits-
On both kits the oem boyson cylinder bank manifolds dump into pretty large diameter pipes. Those pipes only carry exhaust from 1 cylinder at a time so there's no need from a flow perspective for them to be that big, and the large diameter will un-necessarily slow down exhaust velocity in the pipe, not optimal for good spool and response. Also, both are obviously single scroll, not ideal for spool.

2.) BimmerFab-
There's a T connecting the two banks, and each bank directly faces the other. So instead of being directed towards the turbo inlet, each bank fires directly into the opposite bank. Not optimal for spool and backpressure at the exhaust valves.

3.) BimmerFab-
The wastegate isn't present on one view, and looks like an afterthought on another view. Doesn't seem like optimal wg positioning for avoiding boost creep?

4.) JackFab-
Both banks direct the exhaust towards the turbo, which is good. But it looks like there's is only a wastegate on one bank? The two banks merge in that area, so it should still work, but not ideal for boost control. Also, the wastegate actuator is practically touching the downpipe, probably not ideal for the life of the diaphragm inside.

Do the things above have a noticable impact performance? I don't know, but they don't seem ideal to me. Seems like they may be laggy, yet potentially susceptible to boost creep? That's why neither of these kits seem very appealing to me, personally.

I know Speedtech and 4n aren't made for 535, but if you look at those kits, their manifolds (both top and bottom mount in the case of speedtech) don't really have any of those non-ideal characteristics listed above - they're well-sorted manifolds in my opinion.

Have you looked into Hydra hp800's? I'm n55 so I'm not super familiar, but they seem like some pretty killer twins.
Thank you so much for the reply, I really appreciate the input. I have some thoughts on your points, all of which is seeking more understanding, since I am no expert on exhaust flow/boost creep/overall lag.

1.) I would think that the runners on the JF kit would be more ideal for velocity, just by looking at the position of the collectors, but would velocity be that negatively impacted by the T on the BF kit? I am inclined to think the BF kit would be more prone to exhaust reversion, but again I am by no means an expert on flow (I will leave that to the likes of Gale Banks)

2.) As mentioned above I would be inclined to think it would be more susceptible to exhaust reversion, however I wonder about the scavenging effect by using the T would the exhaust gasses not flow to the path of least resistance being the large runner off the T? Since that large runner to the turbo having the largest volume I would expect the exhaust would flow to that, however it doesn't look like the velocity of the gasses would be as great as the JF Kit.

3.) The WG not being present in the first view on the BF Kit is a bit strange, but in the second view it looks to be right on the elbow, which would be the point with the largest volume of exhaust as well as the point of highest velocity?

4.) Thank you for pointing out the issue (or perceived issue) with the WG positioning, I imagine that is going to be the biggest issue with the JF Kit. Bank 1 not really being able to relieve exhaust gas, would that not lead to substantial boost creep? As well as the relation of the WG to the DP making it pretty difficult to service, as well as the massive amount of heat not only to the diaphragm but also the reference line, and melting a hole in the reference line sounds like a pretty terrible fate for the life of my engine.

I was actually looking into the Speedtech bottom mount kit, I really like the manifold on the bottom mount vs the top mount since the top mount kit looks to have massively long runners on Bank 2 (could this lead to better scavenging for Bank 1?). But the big unknown is if the kit will even fit the E60, without having that knowledge makes it a pretty big gamble. I just sent an email to the Speedtech team about fitment, if they get back to me that it will fit, that definitely takes the cake.

The Hydra HP800's are really nice, my big concern is the amount of torque associated with big twins, and further shortening the lifespan of my engine. There is a great post on here about the HP800's but I can't find the size specs of them anywhere, the flow rates are pretty impressive though.
 

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
Have a look at jmc tuning kit from cyprus, it fits RHD cars so should fit an e60 lhd. Equal length, zirconia coated, it's a very well thought kit. I have it with a gtx3582r and it's pretty amazing.

Personally, I don't find either one of those kits appealing, I like the aliexpress offering more than those kits. I don't advocate for aliexpress kits but by comparison, this manifold seems superior for flow.
View attachment 107499
The JMC Tuning kit looks incredible, but unfortunately the 7K USD price tag is very far out of my budget. Assembling a turbo kit isn't as appealing, but I am not opposed to doing that, but I imagine I will need a custom fabbed downpipe since finding one already fabbed isn't going to happen. My realistic parts budget is going to cap at around 3500, plus or minus a couple hundred.
 

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
My biggest concern with AliExpress things is having it fit properly, but that really does look well constructed and designed even if it doesn't appear to have equal length runners, it looks close. 3:1 runners feeding to a T4 flange and wastegate dump to each limb though I would prefer a separate wastegate for each bank, and if open dump they MUST route under the car. A fabricator who emphasizes open dump and DP routing through the hood is a massive red flag to me. Consideration also important for O2 sensor placement pre or post turbo as they are service items on ST setups due to heat.

Bottom mount would be preferable for heat management and center of gravity purposes.

Really nice example of what the OP should be looking for as a baseline. Wonder what design they copied.

OP: Not all 19Ts are equal, not all twins in general are equal, and while the factory boysens are really quite amazing I'd want flow optimized turbo folds for large twins and a ST setup. I would never consider a build with the factory boysens cut in on anything other than something close to stock frame twins or maybe an incredibly small single (though what's the point of that?)

If you're open to more work, I'd really recommend considering head work, which is a massive restriction on the N54.

I'm quite biased though, I've voted with my wallet twice now with Hydra parts aimed at making the native TT architecture work as well as possible while retaining as many factory BMW parts internally as feasible.
I appreciate the info, seeing all the different 19T's available, there really is a large variety of sizes, blades, and flow capacities. I get the desire for a fully optimized manifold, but finding one that will actually fit the E60 is proving quite difficult, just finding information if they fit or not has been the challenge.
And if we are being honest, I don't have pockets deep enough for some of these fully custom manifolds, however Jack Fabrication has a fully fabbed manifold available for 4500 (which would be a bit of a stretch but not completely out of reach) but it has a similar issue as the boysen manifold, being the wastegate is only attached to the Bank 2 runner, it looks like Bank 1 is not connected to the wastegate at all, which is pretty much disqualifying the kit in my book.
I am hoping to hear back from Speedtech for their bottom mount kit, I really like the manifold configuration (however not in-love with it being cast). If that kit will fit the E60, I'm thinking I will pull the trigger on that instead of the BimmerFab Top Mount.
**I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the Top Mount look to be very appealing, however I am much more interested in function, but it has to fit the E60 and it needs to fall into my financial reach**

I do have the Cat Cams Hot Street on my mind, but I'm weighing the options of Headwork and cams on the N54 head, or if I should opt for the N53 head (the amount of custom parts needed for the head swap is a bit overwhelming, but as long as I have a spare block, I feel it can be completed, but then I also have to deal with another issue being the turbo manifold would have to be custom, then I'm kind of back in the same spot as now). All this is under the assumption of a closed deck block with rods and pistons (not going to happen this year, a Wedding and Honeymoon is taking priority to built motor and head, but did get the green light to do a turbo kit)
 
Last edited:

wheela

Captain
Jun 4, 2021
1,459
846
0
Twin Cities, MN
Ride
2015 e84 X1 35i Msport
Thank you so much for the reply, I really appreciate the input. I have some thoughts on your points, all of which is seeking more understanding, since I am no expert on exhaust flow/boost creep/overall lag.

1.) I would think that the runners on the JF kit would be more ideal for velocity, just by looking at the position of the collectors, but would velocity be that negatively impacted by the T on the BF kit? I am inclined to think the BF kit would be more prone to exhaust reversion, but again I am by no means an expert on flow (I will leave that to the likes of Gale Banks)

2.) As mentioned above I would be inclined to think it would be more susceptible to exhaust reversion, however I wonder about the scavenging effect by using the T would the exhaust gasses not flow to the path of least resistance being the large runner off the T? Since that large runner to the turbo having the largest volume I would expect the exhaust would flow to that, however it doesn't look like the velocity of the gasses would be as great as the JF Kit.

3.) The WG not being present in the first view on the BF Kit is a bit strange, but in the second view it looks to be right on the elbow, which would be the point with the largest volume of exhaust as well as the point of highest velocity?

4.) Thank you for pointing out the issue (or perceived issue) with the WG positioning, I imagine that is going to be the biggest issue with the JF Kit. Bank 1 not really being able to relieve exhaust gas, would that not lead to substantial boost creep? As well as the relation of the WG to the DP making it pretty difficult to service, as well as the massive amount of heat not only to the diaphragm but also the reference line, and melting a hole in the reference line sounds like a pretty terrible fate for the life of my engine.

I was actually looking into the Speedtech bottom mount kit, I really like the manifold on the bottom mount vs the top mount since the top mount kit looks to have massively long runners on Bank 2 (could this lead to better scavenging for Bank 1?). But the big unknown is if the kit will even fit the E60, without having that knowledge makes it a pretty big gamble. I just sent an email to the Speedtech team about fitment, if they get back to me that it will fit, that definitely takes the cake.

The Hydra HP800's are really nice, my big concern is the amount of torque associated with big twins, and further shortening the lifespan of my engine. There is a great post on here about the HP800's but I can't find the size specs of them anywhere, the flow rates are pretty impressive though.
No problem! Here are my thoughts on your questions:

1.) I agree the shape is better on the jm kit, but the diameter of the pipes is very large. Fluid velocity will drop proportionally as Cross sectional area increases, and the croossection increases at 3.14 × radius squared (Cross section increases much faster than diameter) so the exhaust gas hits the brakes when it enters the larger diameter area.

2.) Fluids do flow from higher pressure to lower pressure areas, but since it has mass it also has momentum when it's moving. And gases are also compressible, so they can resonate (think of a ported subwoofer enclosure). So even if there is less pressure in the 90 degree turn of the tee, that gas's momentum from bank 1 is pushing directly into bank 2, increasing that bank's pressure. Eventually the pressure in bank 2 will build up to a peak as the gas pulse loses its momentum. Depending when the exhaust valves in bank 2 open relative to the pressure peak, you could get the exact opposite of scavenging. Plus, now the pressure peak from the gas's momentum will push it back in the direction it came from (the resonant portion). But now it's aimed back into an opposite bank again (it's original bank). So the gases are just fighting them selves the whole way to the turbo. Could the resonant peak create a scavenging effect? Maybe at some certain rpm, but without testing or sophisticated modeling good luck predicting where. But I doubt you'll get any benefit from that manifold configuration. There's a reason why good headers all flow downstream and not up runners for other cylinders/bank of cylinders.

3.) Again the gas has momentum, so it will want to blow right past an abrupt 90 degree turn. With these manifold, the large diameter (and slower velocity) would actually reduce tendency for the gases momentum to carry it right past the 90. But you want to keep your velocity up before the turbo. Attached is a screenshot of Turbosmart's recommendations for WG orientation.

4.) Yes, that positiong is not ideal for preventing boost creep. And yes, that heat will be problematic, see that Turbosmart screenshot about keeping the actuator away from direct heat sources.

The runners on the Speedtech top mount are longer than the bottom mount, but still not that long. Plus they're not grossly over-sized. Take a look at 4n manifolds or any equal length runner, the long runners on a speedtech top mount are still shorter. Speedtech would be awesome if you could get it to fit.

I wouldn't worry about torque with the Hydras. They use vacuum wastegates, so you can easily limit boost at low rpm in your tune. Plus larger turbines and turbine housings will need more flow (rpm) to build boost anyway.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20250312_105831_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20250312_105831_Chrome.jpg
    194.7 KB · Views: 4

easy60

Lurker
Oct 6, 2024
13
2
0
No problem! Here are my thoughts on your questions:

1.) I agree the shape is better on the jm kit, but the diameter of the pipes is very large. Fluid velocity will drop proportionally as Cross sectional area increases, and the croossection increases at 3.14 × radius squared (Cross section increases much faster than diameter) so the exhaust gas hits the brakes when it enters the larger diameter area.

2.) Fluids do flow from higher pressure to lower pressure areas, but since it has mass it also has momentum when it's moving. And gases are also compressible, so they can resonate (think of a ported subwoofer enclosure). So even if there is less pressure in the 90 degree turn of the tee, that gas's momentum from bank 1 is pushing directly into bank 2, increasing that bank's pressure. Eventually the pressure in bank 2 will build up to a peak as the gas pulse loses its momentum. Depending when the exhaust valves in bank 2 open relative to the pressure peak, you could get the exact opposite of scavenging. Plus, now the pressure peak from the gas's momentum will push it back in the direction it came from (the resonant portion). But now it's aimed back into an opposite bank again (it's original bank). So the gases are just fighting them selves the whole way to the turbo. Could the resonant peak create a scavenging effect? Maybe at some certain rpm, but without testing or sophisticated modeling good luck predicting where. But I doubt you'll get any benefit from that manifold configuration. There's a reason why good headers all flow downstream and not up runners for other cylinders/bank of cylinders.

3.) Again the gas has momentum, so it will want to blow right past an abrupt 90 degree turn. With these manifold, the large diameter (and slower velocity) would actually reduce tendency for the gases momentum to carry it right past the 90. But you want to keep your velocity up before the turbo. Attached is a screenshot of Turbosmart's recommendations for WG orientation.

4.) Yes, that positiong is not ideal for preventing boost creep. And yes, that heat will be problematic, see that Turbosmart screenshot about keeping the actuator away from direct heat sources.

The runners on the Speedtech top mount are longer than the bottom mount, but still not that long. Plus they're not grossly over-sized. Take a look at 4n manifolds or any equal length runner, the long runners on a speedtech top mount are still shorter. Speedtech would be awesome if you could get it to fit.

I wouldn't worry about torque with the Hydras. They use vacuum wastegates, so you can easily limit boost at low rpm in your tune. Plus larger turbines and turbine housings will need more flow (rpm) to build boost anyway.
Holy smokes! this might be the most beneficial reply on a forum I think I have ever gotten, seriously, thank you so much. Really really great info here. It sounds worthwhile to try and get the Speedtech kit to fit (I think the bottom mount has a better shot of fitting the E60 than the top mount). Unfortunately it looks like options are quite slim for the E60 chassis, unless I get a positive response from Speedtech, so if that's the case I either have to pick the lesser of the 2 evils, or spend quite a bit more than I originally planned to spend assembling my own kit, which really isn't ideal for me, but neither is burning up a valve, or boost creeping into a block window.

1.) So with both kits we are going to run into a massive velocity decrease going from a relatively small cross-sectional area to something that looks nearly 1.5X the port tube, so spool on both kits are going to suffer drastically, as the exhaust gasses slow down to, essentially, fill the area of the larger diameter tube, meaning it's going to take much more gas flow/RPM to spin the turbine. (If I'm understanding that correctly?)

2-3.) Gotcha, so the BF Kit could be increasing exhaust port pressure as the gasses basically collide, instead of flowing to the area of least resistance they are going to continue movie in the direction of the elbow, which as you said, is the opposite bank, instead of flowing upward to the turbo. (I appreciate you explaining that, because it makes much more sense now that I think about it, I think I was thinking more of if pressure builds at the base of the T, it would essentially build to a point where the gasses would have only one way to flow -Upward-.)

4.) I think regardless of the direction I go, I'm fairly sure I have been talked out of the JF Kit, not only due to the WG placement in the system, but also what looks to have virtually no way to control boost on Bank 1, which really doesn't inspire confidence.

I was talking more in relation of Cyl6 length VS Cyl1 length, it looks like cylinder 4-6 are nearly twice as long as it's Cylinder 1-3 counterparts. But even still I prefer the manifold design of the bottom mount kit, and being more serviceable and moving heat away from the valve cover would be a nice benefit for consistent pulls.

It is my preference at this time to go with a single kit over twins, I think the Hydras look awesome, it looks like they work really really well too, but I'm more partial to the big single, at least for now. Spool time looks to be around the 4K mark with a lot of the single kits, which is around where my current 19T's spool.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wheela